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Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
21

He Who Knows the Law

Kicking Mantis

I wonder what LAWCLANSMAN has to say. After all he is claimed to have inherited the full mantis system of over 10000000 forms.

Whether someone could grab you in the first place is precisely the point. If there is a low chance of them getting a “lock on” why spend squillions of hours learning to escape. Sure a piano can fall from a plane and hit on the head and no amount of KF will defend you from that!!

You said:
“Then you haven’t been grabbed by the right Eagle Claw martial artist. Let Master Shum Lum from New York grab you, you escape and then you tell us how easy it was for you to escape. LOL!”

My point is that, your example is unrealistic.

In any case, the strength of the grip is marginal to the overall effectiveness of the claw. You don’t expect an unwilling opponent would be led around by the arm like a puppy would you? If that was not the case, why would riot police have to work in teams to subdue an opponent.

Real KF is not some party trick on how hard you can grab or how long Harry Hudini takes to escape. It is true that if a lock down is achieved ( regardless of the style - Mantis, Eagle, wrestling) escape will be difficult. However, we’re not taking about a grab, but more like a head lock etc.

22

Fu Manchu

I sense a since of sarcasm in your post and I think that by us going back and forth on this issue is going nowhere.

I dont know why you brought LAWCLANSMAN (SIfu C. Albright) into this discussion. You said " I wonder what LAWCLANSMAN has to say. After all he is claimed to have inherited the full mantis system of over 10000000 forms."
Sounds like you have an issue with him, the number of forms he knows and his inheritancy. You should probably clear up your personal issues and insecurities with him on a one on one basis.

You seem to think that you are invincable and will never be grabbed and if you do, you can escape it by any one that grabs you, especially if it is a five finger grab.

I am going to assume that you do not use your system to fight and that you do not fight often (maybe you do with gloves or you have just reached this heavenly plateau and you are now invincable). And no one can ever grab you.

I have been given the opportunity to touch often lately and I am grabbed and I grab, depending on the grab it is easy to escape and sometimes it is not.

In MY opinion you made a blanket statement that the “Five Finger” or “Eagle Claw” is easy to escape I was just trying to explain to you that, NO it is not if applied during touching hands or a fight with someone that knows how to use the claw and yes the point is not to be grabbed, but reality is if two seasoned fighters are engaging in combat they are both going to grab and lock each other up, yes there are counters, however, you need to realize that you are not living in reality when you continue to say i will never be grabbed, because you will and you need to know what to do when you are. It is evident that you dont know what to do if you are because you are concentrating too much on not being grabbed and the second you engage someone that is good at sticking and they grab you, you are going to freak out try to pull away and get locked up.

you said, “If there is a low chance of them getting a lock on why spend squillions of hours learning to escape.”

I never said there is a low chance of getting a lock on, but just because you spend squillions of hours, as you say to get a lock on or escape a lock doesn’t mean you will grab and lock every one you fight or touch with and it doesn’t mean that you will escape them either.

So my example was not realistic Fu Manchu…
you said and made a blanket statement that the five finger grab is easy to escape from…I am advocatig it isnt always the case if you are grabbed by an individual that knows what they are doing, yeah you can counter and so can they, but to assume that a partucular technique doesnt work because you haven’t had it applied on you effectively is like saying all kung fu sucks.:slight_smile:

[This message was edited by KickingMantis on 12-05-00 at 11:30 AM.]

23

Mantis Hook Vs Eagle Claw

In my experience, Eagle claw is far more difficult to apply correctly in the thick of combat.

I didnt suggest it doesnt work, what I said earlier that the time lag and the sensitivity of the grab is considerably less than the mantis hook.

While the hook can feel on at least 3 planes of movement, the Eagle claw by its nature really only works on 2, thus it is harder to compensate for when someone is trying to get out of it.

The mantis gives me much more sensitivity than the former.

The arguement was not whether Eagle works. It does. But I think the mantis hook can compensate for sudden changes BEFORE the grab is fully applied. (Dont you agree that is when most grabs fail, when they haven’t quite clamped on?)

I think it is easier to compensate and turn the hook into a hit or a defence compared to the Eagle Claw. This is my experience and the experience of many fighters I know. My point in the end is that no one has ever needed to point out a SPECIFIC SIFU who can perform the grab, where as Kicking Mantis had to tell us who can actually use the move.

Most people who are taught the mantis hook can apply it effectively. (In my experience) It’s not a situation of, “It doesn’t work? Well “so and so” can do it.”

Mantis hook is more of a, “Do you know how to apply it?” And if the person does, people havent said it doesnt work. (On this forum anyway)

Cheers

The Force will be with you…always

24

Never said Never!!!

Hey Kicking Mantis,

Never did the FUster claim to be invincible or ungrabbable. Although I do thank you for holding me in such high regard when you don’t really know me!

Never did I say it was impossible to “lock”, only that one would have to get through a lot of opposing factors to get into that range!!

I was hoping that LawClansMan had something to contribute as he is usually quite vocal on the forums. i don’t have any problems with him or anyone for that matter. Engaging in forums is my relaxation time, I hope you see it that way too. Nevertheless i do thank you for your concern about my perceived personal insecurities!!

In terms of grabbing, it is not easy to put on - evidence police subduing opponents. Even in a controlled environment of No holds barred contest, the match takes substantially longer time on average than a real fight.

25

Hey!

Obiwan,

I only mentioned theat particular sifu because i know personally that his Eagle claw grab is incredibe.

A lot of people do mantis and other styles and they grab as well. It does mean that it is effective.It depends on the individual and the circumstance.

Fu Manchu made a blanket statement and said it is easily escapable. My argument is if you fight, you know that you CAN be grabbed, and sometimes you dont feel it right away or pull away from it it can lead to a lock. In my opinion I dont think any grab is easily escapable always. Fu Manchu said the point of studying mantis is so you will not be grabbed. I agree. But you have to prepare yourself and know what to do if you are. Assuming that a grab is easily escapable so I wont worry about it is ridiculous.

Obiwan:
“In my experience, Eagle claw is far more difficult to apply correctly in the thick of combat.”

ok, you may not have studied Eagle Claw or you are not proficient at it. I dont study Eale Claw either, But I have learned some of it and some of its principles are in 7 Star Mantis (HK)

Obiwan:
“I didnt suggest it doesnt work, what I said earlier that the time lag and the sensitivity of the grab is considerably less than the mantis hook.”

I dont think I ever said you suggested it doesn’t work. The only thing I said was replying to Fu Manchu’s blanket statement that it can be easily escaped from. My opinion is that any grab, can be easily escaped from if you are grabbed from someone that doesn’t know how or isn’t proficient.
but it can be difficult to escape from to both grabs or any grab depending ona lot of factors, not just the position of the hand.

Obiwan:
“Mantis hook is more of a, “Do you know how to apply it?” And if the person does, people havent said it doesnt work. (On this forum anyway)”

Any hook or grab is more of a Do you know how to apply it, that refers to any technique, theory or method not just the mantis claw or Eagle Claw

Fu Manchu:
“I was hoping that LawClansMan had something to contribute as he is usually quite vocal on the forums. i don’t have any problems with him or anyone for that matter. Engaging in forums is my relaxation time, I hope you see it that way too. Nevertheless i do thank you for your concern about my perceived personal insecurities!!”

earlier you said:

“I wonder what LAWCLANSMAN has to say. After all he is claimed to have inherited the full mantis system of over 10000000 forms.”

I dont know sounds pretty sarcastic to me. I dont know anyone that knows 10,000,000 forms and I dont speak for him, but i am sure he didn’t claim to.

Fu Manchu:
“In terms of grabbing, it is not easy to put on - evidence police subduing opponents. Even in a controlled environment of No holds barred contest, the match takes substantially longer time on average than a real fight.”

Ok. I see now. I see what I am up against. Thats why. another No Holds Barred and WWF fan.

26

The reason some mantis lineages (particularly the ones frm HK) uses the eagle claw is because quite afew of the teachers also learnt eagle claw. I think there was exchange of information between Mr Lau of Eagle Claw (forgot his full name) and some mantis teachers and also because eagle claw and mantis were two of the main styles in the Ching Wu Association.

As for the effectiveness of the eagle claw tecnhique I can’t comment much on it since I haven’t learn Ying Zhao before.

27

Question?

(Bowing In)
Have you done something to have people seem to hate you and what you say??? I seem that on every post I read someone is dissin’ you. Just curious , what gives?

(Bowing Out)

28

re: Question

I am talking to 8stepsifu