[QUOTE=bennyvt;1063891]why would you bring an arm down and into your other side if you were going to punch under it. You would just punch. The punch should be done over the top as we don’t punch under our own hands. To do the jut and punch under would not only be using the jut in a redundant manner you would be stopping your own punch. The point being that when done on an opponent his arm would move (while the dummy arms do not). The punch is done low to teach proper elbow usage and not lifting the elbow as you lose control. But if you do it properly on the dummy it transfers onto an opponent if you think about the way the move feels as opposed to the shape or position in space on the dummy. Gledhill tends to use the idea of all moves are the punch, in this circumstance nearly all the jum sao’s can be thought of as strikes. While sometimes they are blocks. Each move on the dummy can be broken down into just a single arm movement, dual arm movement, just footwork and all combinations of that.
When doing the air dummy if you extend the moves to how you would if the arms were not imobile you will see what I mean. Just stand there and do a jut sao, now look were your elbow is. Normally this would end up around your ziphoid process (little bone below your sternum). Now put your other hand were it would normally be and do both of them while punching under. You will probably be blocking your own punch with your jut sao.:p[/QUOTE]
I can see your perspective here. However under my liniage (Ip ching) your Jut Sau and Punch which is performed in your Sil lim Tao stance is actually a Pak Sau with punch but we shift into a chum kui stance with weight on the right leg which creates an angle for the strike. Please see this link which will be a better explanation. Your thoughts on this in relation to our discussion would be welcome.
When we do the hung jong we do everything symmetrical just like we do all the other empty hand forms. The same should be true of the dummy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOpn9iIYpjI
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1067211]When we do the hung jong we do everything symmetrical just like we do all the other empty hand forms. The same should be true of the dummy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOpn9iIYpjI[/QUOTE]
Just curious, but does your wooden man have the upper two arms at the same height? If not, there is no symmetry fme
the jut was just an example. As some have said even the arms are not at the same height due to basic wood work logic. The dummy was made to be as close as it can to be able to practice heaps of moves on it. So like the twin jut sao’s on the dummy arms are not level but in the air they would be.
[QUOTE=bennyvt;1067334]the jut was just an example. As some have said even the arms are not at the same height due to basic wood work logic. The dummy was made to be as close as it can to be able to practice heaps of moves on it. So like the twin jut sao’s on the dummy arms are not level but in the air they would be.[/QUOTE]
In the video I posted the arms can be level. It’s just that people put them in wrong since the tangs are off center.
I don’t know about non-Yip Man lineage dummies but the plans Yip Man gave to Cheung King Kong to give to Koo Sang had the dummy arms level.
It’s just not logical to do the WC forms symmetrical yet do the jong asymmetrical. Think!
If you watched the video like FungSung said you’d see what I mean…
[QUOTE=FongSung;1067330]Did you watch the VDO ;):D[/QUOTE]
Er… Doh!
Must admit, I didn’t when I wrote that post but I have now
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1067330]In the video I posted the arms can be level. It’s just that people put them in wrong since the tangs are off center.
I don’t know about non-Yip Man lineage dummies but the plans Yip Man gave to Cheung King Kong to give to Koo Sang had the dummy arms level.
It’s just not logical to do the WC forms symmetrical yet do the jong asymmetrical. Think!
If you watched the video like FungSung said you’d see what I mean…[/QUOTE]
Its very interesting to hear this as I have just as good an explanation for the arms to not be level! And it’s wierd for me because I have a Koo Sang designed wooden man and it was supplied with two evenly made arms for the top and only 1 off centre arm for the lower section. Obviously I wouldn’t even be able to do what you done in the clip as I’d need to order some more off centre type arms!
Even more interesting is seeing Ip Ching demonstrate on a wooden man that has even top arms. Subtle differences in training but I don’t think it makes that much difference in the 108 form, but it does affect the plum flower wooden man I have trained. Fist, palm and finger positioning especially.
The top two arms on the dummy have to be set at a specific height from the floor depending on the height of the person using it and they have to be level for a very good reason. The angle between the two arms is also very important.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1067532]… and they have to be level for a very good reason. The angle between the two arms is also very important.[/QUOTE]
Care to share why?
FME, and I train on a wooden man with one upper arm above the other, during our plum flower fist sets you just do not get the same feeling with the basic punches ‘into’ the triangle. I’m not talking of making contact with the body here, I’m jamming the fist and forearms into the upper two arms to train structure. I have tried this with even arms before but it felt very ‘off’, and I could see why many WCK students punch ‘over’ the top arms and hit the body. It would be good to hear of any more benefits to the even arms.
FME, and I train on a wooden man with one upper arm above the other, during our plum flower fist sets you just do not get the same feeling with the basic punches ‘into’ the triangle. I’m not talking of making contact with the body here, I’m jamming the fist and forearms into the upper two arms to train structure. I have tried this with even arms before but it felt very ‘off’, and I could see why many WCK students punch ‘over’ the top arms and hit the body. It would be good to hear of any more benefits to the even arms.
I may order some new arms for more testing![/QUOTE]
Yip Man gave the plans to CKK to give to Koo Sang. When the dummy was finished Yip Man noticed that the distance between the arms was off. Maybe because of the difficulty of making a square “hole” in the trunk. But he just said don’t worry about it and so most dummies were made the same way. I have a student who does CAD. Well, he made the correction to the original plans for me. When I get a chance I’ll upload a clip of why “we” want a certain distance between the arms. Notice I said why WE want it a certain way. I cant speak for other WC people and would never do so.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1067743]I have a student who does CAD. Well, he made the correction to the original plans for me. When I get a chance I’ll upload a clip of why “we” want a certain distance between the arms. [/QUOTE]
I’m not talking so much about the distance between the arms, it’s the even arms that I find interesting…
I have both my Sifu Koo Sang’s handmade Jong and I have a handmade Jong by my Sifu Kwan Jong Yuen of YKS/Gu Lao WCK.
The YKS Jong has both arms level, and the distance between the arms is about a fist apart.
The Koo Sang Jong I have is an antique; over 40 years old and hand carved out of teak. I restored it about 10 years ago. The arms are uneven, but a simple flip of the upper arms position due to the pegs makes it even. The distance between the arms is a bit tighter.
I can do the YKS, Yip Man and Gu Lao Jong sets on Koo Sang’s Jong.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1067960]The Koo Sang Jong I have is an antique; over 40 years old and hand carved out of teak. I restored it about 10 years ago. The arms are uneven, but a simple flip of the upper arms position due to the pegs makes it even. The distance between the arms is a bit tighter.[/QUOTE]
And what do you prefer to use Robert? Even or uneven arms? Do they actually feel that much different or was it just my experience?
My problem is I haven’t got enough spare arms to get mine even! I was always told that the off centre built arms are to make the gap bewteen smaller/larger. Having even arms was never really discussed.
I have 3 dummies. One is not put up- made by my sifu along time ago .One wushu guy who I shared space with for a while -out of ignorance cracked one slat hole by hammering on a pipe that he was putting through the hole.AAARRGH! ..when I was not there!!!Of the two mounted one is by Koo Sang (teak)from the 70s- the arms are fairly level and angled right and the space at the front of the arms is about the distance from my stretched pinky to my stretched thumb- suits me fine.
The other is custom made-maple I think- with cut and shaped planks strongly glued together
and heat treated before oiling and polishing.I dont like pads on my dummies.
Together with a friend I designed an iron framework which is reinforced and bolted to the ground.
The slats are free to provide the springiness together with the proper fit of the arms and legs into the square holes.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1067960]I have both my Sifu Koo Sang’s handmade Jong and I have a handmade Jong by my Sifu Kwan Jong Yuen of YKS/Gu Lao WCK.
The YKS Jong has both arms level, and the distance between the arms is about a fist apart.
The Koo Sang Jong I have is an antique; over 40 years old and hand carved out of teak. I restored it about 10 years ago. The arms are uneven, but a simple flip of the upper arms position due to the pegs makes it even. The distance between the arms is a bit tighter.
I can do the YKS, Yip Man and Gu Lao Jong sets on Koo Sang’s Jong.[/QUOTE]
Hi Robert, I had 3 Koo Sang dummies and sold one years ago. When I was at the VT Museum I mentioned to Benny Meng that I was going to sell one of the two I had left.
He said that I shouldn’t sell it because they’re valuable collectibles. So I kept them both.
A guy emailed me that he wanted to sell one for $3,000. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1068133]Hi Robert, I had 3 Koo Sang dummies and sold one years ago. When I was at the VT Museum I mentioned to Benny Meng that I was going to sell one of the two I had left.
He said that I shouldn’t sell it because they’re valuable collectibles. So I kept them both.
A guy emailed me that he wanted to sell one for $3,000. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
When Alan Lamb was studying with Koo Sang in HK- he like other Koo Sang students would
help with the square logs that were all shaped/scraped by hand to make them round.
With Koo Sang now gone- it’s the end of an era.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1068024]And what do you prefer to use Robert? Even or uneven arms? Do they actually feel that much different or was it just my experience?
My problem is I haven’t got enough spare arms to get mine even! I was always told that the off centre built arms are to make the gap bewteen smaller/larger. Having even arms was never really discussed.[/QUOTE]
Personally, I believe the arms should be level, all you have to do is arrange the pegs arms properly, and Voila! Instant level arms (at least with the older Jongs made by Koo Sang)!
Application wise, its just a set - not something to be worshipped, but dissected.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1068133]Hi Robert, I had 3 Koo Sang dummies and sold one years ago. When I was at the VT Museum I mentioned to Benny Meng that I was going to sell one of the two I had left.
He said that I shouldn’t sell it because they’re valuable collectibles. So I kept them both.
A guy emailed me that he wanted to sell one for $3,000. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1068158]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When Alan Lamb was studying with Koo Sang in HK- he like other Koo Sang students would
help with the square logs that were all shaped/scraped by hand to make them round.
With Koo Sang now gone- it’s the end of an era.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Yes, and it was an honor to have studied with Alan Lamb. I saw him last in L.A. 2006
