Advice on knuckle and forearm conditioning

Hi everyone,

My name is Damian, I am 25, I have no experience whatsoever in martial arts and I have recently taken up some self-defense classes mainly based on principles/techniques from judo, jiujitsu, karate, shaolin kung fu, wing chun.

>> I started conditioning my forearms and fists (knuckles) in order to improve my blocking and punching skills, but also to boost my mental capital.
I currently follow this routine three times a week:

  • Regular push-ups (20reps)
  • Knuckles push-ups (20reps)
  • Roller bar method on forearms with a broom stick (10 min)
  • Punches on sandbag with the fist (2 min per hand)
  • Punches on sandbag with the back of the hand (2 min per hand)

This routine is only the starting point and I intend to up the reps and series progressively every 2 or 3 months. I would appreciate if you could provide me with some feedback, tips or advice? Please feel free to let me know what you think.

>> Also I wanted to ask you a few questions on dit da jow.
> I understand the purpose and benefits of DDJ, and I get it at nearby Chinese grocery store. However, these are sold in plastic bottles. I have seen on the internet warnings about that, is that so dangerous?
> In any case, I would like to make my own DDJ, do you have any recipes?
> Last question on the frequency of applications: I understand that the bare minimum is to apply at least before and after the training. Would it be a good idea to apply some during the day too? Also, considering my routine, should I apply some on the days when I do not train?

Many thanks for all your advice.
Damian

Take a look at some of these threads here: Iron Palm Thread Search

The type of plastic used is the non-leeching type these days. Technology has improved greatly even in the last 5 years.

Use a heavy bag instead of a sandbag. Sandbags compress and become concrete and have no give. No give = bad for your hand. Watch a slo-mo of any break and you will see directly the stresses the hand is placed under when striking hard surfaces.

Go slow, take your time, develop an art and don’t rush. If you rush you drop things, take shortcuts and in the end all you really have is a mish mash bag of shit instead of a martial art worth keeping.

:slight_smile:

Thank you for all your assistance, and sorry for not using the search browser.
Next time I have questions I will check it out!

Be well.
Damian

[QUOTE=MadAx;1176010]Thank you for all your assistance, and sorry for not using the search browser.
Next time I have questions I will check it out!

Be well.
Damian[/QUOTE]

Dont be sorry. I only post the search find because i am no expert on this but would like to give you a starting point to help with. i hope you find some good things in there. i think if you have further questions, you should post them in this thread. there are several knowledgable people here that can answer many things you might ask.

good luck!!

without proper instruction you might cripple your forearms if you try to do “iron arm”. if you insist, then lightly tap them against each other.

the most basic kung fu forearm training is locking skill. you just randomly knock your forearms against each other. start with 5 times and increase by 1 every day. dont hit the tendons, lightly tap. this excercise is retard proof.

[QUOTE=MadAx;1175924]- Roller bar method on forearms with a broom stick (10 min)[/quote]

Do not do it this way.

Bone conditioning and the ability to deliver and receive strikes without pain comes from impact against the bone making it more dense (Wolff’s law).

By just scraping a broom stick on the surface you are going to deaden the nerves but you won’t actually get any of the conditioning effect because there is no impact. So you’ll be able to withstand more contact without pain, but you might end up getting hurt in the process because no conditioning has taken place.

Two better methods are:

  1. get an “iron body bag.” I don’t know about martialartsmart’s (sorry Gene) but I know Wing Lam makes good ones. The beginner one is filled with mung beans and is like $20. Hit yourself in the forearm with it 15 times a day total, inside, top, bottom, outside. Start soft, and don’t try to go too hard. If you bruise it means you went too hard, and don’t train the area around the bruise until it is completely healed. Over the months you can increase the force with which you hit yourself. After 6 months when you are hitting yourself pretty hard, you can start to increase the reps one per week if you want.

The key is slow progress. Slow.

  1. hit your forearms together. Be aware of how you’re doing this. Outside-to-inside will hurt a lot more than bottom-to-inside. Keep it consistent.

Or you can do both, warm up by hitting your forearms together and then use the bags.

After each session spend 5-10 minutes massaging your forearms. Rub them together, rotating your forearms at the elbow as you do so so all parts of them rub up against all parts of the other forearms. Do not skip this step. Use dit da jow during this step if you have any.

Some of your forearm hair may come out over time from the friction of the massage :o

>> Also I wanted to ask you a few questions on dit da jow.
> I understand the purpose and benefits of DDJ, and I get it at nearby Chinese grocery store. However, these are sold in plastic bottles. I have seen on the internet warnings about that, is that so dangerous?

I think it depends on the ingredients. Certain ingredients may leach things from the plastic into the formula. Hopefully if it comes in a plastic bottle they don’t have any of those ingredients in it. Wing Lam’s comes in plastic bottles and everyone swears that it is some of the best on the market.

> Last question on the frequency of applications: I understand that the bare minimum is to apply at least before and after the training. Would it be a good idea to apply some during the day too? Also, considering my routine, should I apply some on the days when I do not train?

When I did iron forearm training (Wing Lam style) I only applied the jow after the training session right before the massage. I did this at the beginning of my training so it would soak in or whatever during the rest of it (about an hour or so), and then I took a shower afterward.

To be honest I never noticed anything from the jow. I used it because “you’re supposed to,” and everyone always talked about how great WL’s jow was, but sometimes I would put some on one bruise and nothing on another bruise and there was never any difference in how quickly they healed. And if there was, I would’ve noticed. I wanted to believe it worked so badly. I was one of those “TMA is awesome and too deadly for the ring and I can beat MMA people” type of guys (until I got schooled by MMA noobs, but that’s a different story). I wanted to believe that TCM was better than western medicine and that jow was secret healing potion that non-CMA guys just weren’t enlightened enough to know about. So if there had been the slightest difference between using it and not using it, I would’ve noticed.

But regardless, forearm conditioning is real and not some mystic TMA nonsense, and the scientific methods behind why it works can be explained. And do the massage, too.

So did the jow help? I dunno, maybe.

Would I use it if I was going to do forearm conditioning again? I dunno, maybe.

I’d leave out the qigong component, though. I don’t think you need that in order to get the conditioning. I know you didn’t mention it, but it was part of the training I did. It was maybe a good warm up but that’s it. There was no mystic power flowing through my arms helping to protect me from strikes (even though I believed there was at the time).

Follow the advice that has been given here.
Slow and easy is the way to go.
My okinawan and japanese brothers dropped that ball with how they (typicallY) teach makiwara work, it is NOT supposed to be done hard, but just allowing from a natural inpact with and east flow of momentum, just enough to make hard contact but NOT as hard as possible.
With “iron” training it is a bit more complex, but again, nice and slow is the way to go.
There are a few here with great DVD’s and Jow that you can buy from them.
There is Dale Dugas ( his stuff is top notch)
Plumdragon ( Top notch stuff as well)
And Rod from youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/tao123chi

Thanks for the kind words, Paul.

Slow and steady wins the race.

I have been training my hands for over 20 years and have no health issues.

I am a licensed acupuncturist and herbalist and need to pick up very thin needles.

Also Wing Lam sells dit da jow medicine that is rather weak when compared to my own. I am not impressed at all that he also sells what he terms triple strength when in reality its normal strength and the regular strength is watered down in comparison.

I have the softest baby hands, but when I have to they can do what has to be done. This is from using powerful medicines that do what they are supposed to do.

Let me know how I can be of service to anyone seeking out the best herbs at the best prices.

[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1176202]

Also Wing Lam sells dit da jow medicine that is rather weak when compared to my own. I am not impressed at all that he also sells what he terms triple strength when in reality its normal strength and the regular strength is watered down in comparison.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe that’s why I never noticed it having any effect.

This was over 10 years ago before they started selling the 3x strength stuff so I never had a chance to try that.

I’ve never tried any other kinds so I have nothing to compare it against.

Double blind studies?

FWIW I never really noticed a difference when using arnica gel vs not using anything, either.

Hi all,

Thanks very much indeed for all these tips, appreciate the feedback.

TRAINING ROUTINE
I will stick to the push-ups and punches and I will drop the rollerbar method.
Although it seems like the simplest, the technique where you knock your forearms against each other looks too dangerous given that I do my training on my own. However I will probably get myself an iron body training bag (mug beans) and kick off this journey towards iron forearms. Which brings me to a question: when hitting the forearm with the bag, should I tense it or keep it loose?

As for punches, David Jamieson, you mentioned that heavy bags are better than sand bags given that they provide more ‘’give’’. Is this related to the fact that a heavy bag is hanging? If I hang my sandbag onto a wall, would it then allow for more ‘’give’’, would it be okay?

I will definitely keep in mind the ‘’slow’’ part. I suppose the fact that I cannot go for a daily training (only 2 or 3 times a week) will actually help build up progressively.

DIT DA JOW
I will include some massaging after applying DDJ.
In terms of frequency, as I mentioned above I cannot train every day. Should I still apply DDJ on days where I do not train?

Thanks again!
Damian

On the days you do not train very much you can use a little DDJ. But use it more when you train hard and feel sore, etc…

[QUOTE=MadAx;1176787]Hi all,

Thanks very much indeed for all these tips, appreciate the feedback.

TRAINING ROUTINE
I will stick to the push-ups and punches and I will drop the rollerbar method.
Although it seems like the simplest, the technique where you knock your forearms against each other looks too dangerous given that I do my training on my own. However I will probably get myself an iron body training bag (mug beans) and kick off this journey towards iron forearms. Which brings me to a question: when hitting the forearm with the bag, should I tense it or keep it loose?

As for punches, David Jamieson, you mentioned that heavy bags are better than sand bags given that they provide more ‘’give’’. Is this related to the fact that a heavy bag is hanging? If I hang my sandbag onto a wall, would it then allow for more ‘’give’’, would it be okay?

I will definitely keep in mind the ‘’slow’’ part. I suppose the fact that I cannot go for a daily training (only 2 or 3 times a week) will actually help build up progressively.

DIT DA JOW
I will include some massaging after applying DDJ.
In terms of frequency, as I mentioned above I cannot train every day. Should I still apply DDJ on days where I do not train?

Thanks again!
Damian[/QUOTE]

Yeah how isn’t needed for non iron training really, maybe on bruises from the training itself. I dont think even a hanging sandbag would be good. It becomes very hard when compacted and you can’t loosen it very easily if it’s in a bag. The arm knocking is not dangerous at all just do a figure 8 pattern your left arm hits the right arm then swing the right to hit the left on top and gradually move up and down the tops of the arms. I had no problem starting at about 40 total for that. Just don’t slam your arms hard a little force is okay, then I move to my iron arm bag, the same one suggested. I follow the Wing lam method and I just ordered ddj from Dale, it’s way cheaper in the long run to make your own. You might wanna dabble in iron palm also. Good luck and feel free to ask if you have more questions :smiley:

I meant to say Jow in the first line

Also I keep my arms tensed during the training as per the wing lam DVD I forgot to address that question or you. Just form a tight fist, loosen when your arm gets tired and just continue in a few seconds when you regain strength.

[QUOTE=IronFist;1176222]Maybe that’s why I never noticed it having any effect.

This was over 10 years ago before they started selling the 3x strength stuff so I never had a chance to try that.

I’ve never tried any other kinds so I have nothing to compare it against.

Double blind studies?[/QUOTE]

IronFist: Try Jow from different sources. You should buy a bottle from Dale, try it out see what are the results. Try bottle from me, see what the affect is. There are lots of online places that sell jow. Sometimes different jows smell different or have a different feel (viscous or liquidy etc), sometimes jow has a different affect on your body, sometimes different jows cause rashes on some people.

Experiment and see what you like

ginosifu

[QUOTE=MadAx;1176787]Which brings me to a question: when hitting the forearm with the bag, should I tense it or keep it loose?[/quote]

The Wing Lam iron body training program says to make a fist and they keep it pretty tight. Supposed to lock in the qi or something.

Just make a fist. It doesn’t have to be SUPER tight and tensed but not completely relaxed.

As for punches, David Jamieson, you mentioned that heavy bags are better than sand bags given that they provide more give. Is this related to the fact that a heavy bag is hanging? If I hang my sandbag onto a wall, would it then allow for more give, would it be okay?

A sandbag is good for training the fist but not really for getting used to throwing a punch. A heavy bag weighs more and will get your body used to the shock that comes from striking something with a punch. A sandbag or a bag filled with beans, even if attached to the wall, does not accurately do this.

I will definitely keep in mind the slow part. I suppose the fact that I cannot go for a daily training (only 2 or 3 times a week) will actually help build up progressively.

You don’t have 10 minutes every day to do forearm training (3 minutes warmup, 2 minutes hitting (probably less), 5 minutes self-massage)?

Should I still apply DDJ on days where I do not train?

What Dale said.

Yeah it doesn’t take long to do iron training. You should try to exercise more even a few minutes a couple times a day is better than nothing

I definitely can make room for a training everyday, and I will get myself a heavy bag, too.
I’m finally ready for action! Thanks for your feedback.

Dale’s jow works amazingly.

The only thing I would change about it is the smell. It smells terrible, lol.