A tribute to Wei Hsiaotang

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
21

7 Hand Methods of 8 Step Mantis

I recently received an email from one of our KFO Mantis brothers.
He included a partial translation from a book from China about Mimen Mantis.

It appears that this information was taken from GM Wei’s very well known Mantis book.
This would mean that it is not Mimen Mantis.
This section of GM Wei’s book talks about the 7 Hand methods of his style.
It is written in a similar style to WHF’s 5 Hand Methods. Although the methods differ.

“The hand methods of Mantis are many.
Our style starts with seven hands”

Here, he is not refering to the 8 Step form called 7 Hands.

"The seven hands are:

  1. Three Climbing Hands-Pa San Shou.
  2. Closing the Attacking Hand-Bi Ji Shou.
  3. Knife Hand-Po Dao Shou.
  4. Three Plucking Hands-Tsai San Shou.
  5. Hook Drag Hands- Go Lou Shou.
  6. Continuous Folding Hands-Die Lien Shou.
  7. Eagle Sparrow Hands-Ying Chue Shou…"

For those 8 Step practitioners in the states is this how you translate GM Wei’s 7 Hands?

22

‘mi men’ book

This book also steals heavily from my Shiye; Li Zhanyuan’s book which was published in the early 80’s. There is a few good sections on applications though.
B.T

23

Re: 7 Hand Methods of 8 Step Mantis

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
[B]I recently received an email from one of our KFO Mantis brothers.
He included a partial translation from a book from China about Mimen Mantis.

It appears that this information was taken from GM Wei’s very well known Mantis book.
This would mean that it is not Mimen Mantis.
This section of GM Wei’s book talks about the 7 Hand methods of his style.
It is written in a similar style to WHF’s 5 Hand Methods. Although the methods differ.

“The hand methods of Mantis are many.
Our style starts with seven hands”

Here, he is not refering to the 8 Step form called 7 Hands.

"The seven hands are:

  1. Three Climbing Hands-Pa San Shou.
  2. Closing the Attacking Hand-Bi Ji Shou.
  3. Knife Hand-Po Dao Shou.
  4. Three Plucking Hands-Tsai San Shou.
  5. Hook Drag Hands- Go Lou Shou.
  6. Continuous Folding Hands-Die Lien Shou.
  7. Eagle Sparrow Hands-Ying Chue Shou…"

For those 8 Step practitioners in the states is this how you translate GM Wei’s 7 Hands? [/B]

#3. Po = broken throgh. Dao = knife. Shou = hand.

All these hands tech. existed throughout the forms in 8 step. But I don’t know if you are talking about the 7 hands as the first solo boxing form or as foundational striking drills.

24

Re: 7 Hand Methods of 8 Step Mantis

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
[B]I recently received an email from one of our KFO Mantis brothers.
He included a partial translation from a book from China about Mimen Mantis.

It appears that this information was taken from GM Wei’s very well known Mantis book.
This would mean that it is not Mimen Mantis.
This section of GM Wei’s book talks about the 7 Hand methods of his style.
It is written in a similar style to WHF’s 5 Hand Methods. Although the methods differ.

“The hand methods of Mantis are many.
Our style starts with seven hands”

Here, he is not refering to the 8 Step form called 7 Hands.

"The seven hands are:

  1. Three Climbing Hands-Pa San Shou.
  2. Closing the Attacking Hand-Bi Ji Shou.
  3. Knife Hand-Po Dao Shou.
  4. Three Plucking Hands-Tsai San Shou.
  5. Hook Drag Hands- Go Lou Shou.
  6. Continuous Folding Hands-Die Lien Shou.
  7. Eagle Sparrow Hands-Ying Chue Shou…"

For those 8 Step practitioners in the states is this how you translate GM Wei’s 7 Hands? [/B]

Well from what i know those are in our 8 hands form, with Hawk Hands starting it off, but yeah thats all i really can tell you.

25

James shyun curriculum:

8 hands techniques:

  1. Hawk hands = Ying chuei shou
  2. Chopping hands = poa dao shou
  3. Sickle hands = tzan yao shou
  4. Double pull hands = shuang luh shou
  5. Grinding wheel hands = mouh pan shou
  6. Climbing hands = pah san shou
  7. Protect hands = bi ji shou
  8. Mantis striking hands = gou lou shou

These are pretty much the same tech.s everyone else knows about 8 step, we (Shun style) just approach teaching them differently. In addition to these we also have 40 more tech.s, -stances, fists, blocks, ect just in the first levelbecausemostof our students have little or no martial arts background and those that do usually have little or no mantis background. I belive tianan mantis pointed out that he uses an eagle claw form to get the basic language of mantis across to students, this is our approach to the same goal. We teach kicks and throws and chin na the same way, a lot more tech.s and information to ground students in basics that they generally don’t have. Mantis practioners with some expereince don’t really need to know all these tech.s, they should already have a grasp on chinese martial arts and mantis concepts.

I beleve Andy Miles wrote a good article on 8 step hands(?) some time back in one of the martial arts rags.

26

Hi Travis,
Thanks for the info.
Nice to know that what you learn is close to what is in Wei Hsiaotang’s book.

He listed 7 and you have 8.
I think it is your sickle hands.
Looking at what you wrote in Chinese it appears to be what I call waist chop.

27

Sickle hands is well known throughout mantis, in one of Profatiylov (spell?) articles, it is shown as an application in one of the pictures. I have also seen it in 7 star once or twice. Many of the concepts that are in Master Wei’s books are only introductions to each portion of 8 step. Some are hands, some are throws/throwing exercises, some lead to chin na. There are several topics covered, but most are not in that much detail. I teach 48 hand tech.s but some are variations on the same idea. The endless debate -are there a few techs and many variations or are there many different tech.s? Tainan you have access to more manuals than I do, are there references to studying other basic systems first to learn the ‘language of fighting’ and then progressing to mantis systems to learn more refined combat tech.s?

28

The names of movements are very important. They express a metaphor or imporatnat focus point of the movements.

There are some mistakes in the translations form some of the names of the moves that listed by Travis. They clearly showed the person who translate them has no knowledge of the true meaning of these moves.

I will not give out free bees, it is the same case that the outsiders will translate the “small waterwheel” into “tombling chariot”. Don’t pretent that didn’t matter, it lost the meaning of the movement and will make the practioner train incorrectly.

29

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
[B]Hi Travis,
Thanks for the info.
Nice to know that what you learn is close to what is in Wei Hsiaotang’s book.

He listed 7 and you have 8.
I think it is your sickle hands.
Looking at what you wrote in Chinese it appears to be what I call waist chop. [/B]

Waist chop is correct translation. Sickle has nothing to do with this move. Sickle, full name is “Old Farmer Cutting Rice”, it is a throwing move of 8 step.

30

I want to sincerely thank Paul Lin for reminding me why I don’t generally post on these discussion boards. I also don’t give out freebees, however, public information is another matter especially for techniques found in every art in every country. Those mantis practioners with sincere hearts know how to contact me, the rest can just…

31

Now now Andy, we have all seen this road before, let’s take a page from our elders and get back to productive mantis discussions. It is inappropriate for accomplished sifus to abuse those who can’t defend themselves, whether they ask for it or not. Your location and mine are very easy to find, people who really want to knock heads with us will do so without fanfare. Let’s ignore the paul lins of this world and move onward and upward.

32

Originally posted by TRAVIS WHITMAN
Now now Andy, we have all seen this road before, let’s take a page from our elders and get back to productive mantis discussions. It is inappropriate for accomplished sifus to abuse those who can’t defend themselves, whether they ask for it or not. Your location and mine are very easy to find, people who really want to knock heads with us will do so without fanfare. Let’s ignore the paul lins of this world and move onward and upward.

The person who shows what Andy showed here is exactly the type of the person that will be disqualified even before to be considered to be taught. I can’t think of any worthy martial artist will produce this kind of embrrassement. If he want to see face to face, he will have to pay for it. I don’t wast any money and time on this kind of education.

The way of translating words by words as any Chinese language speaker/writer can is not what you can deal with a folk martial arts. You will mis interpreted them. 8 step mantis is a folk art and it is not a city art. If the one that is real learned form GM Wei, he will need to understand how to listen to his talking style and understand what he mean. If you used normal Chinese language guessing, like any Chinese could, to make up the meaning, rather than truly explained by GM Wei, you will be off I will know that you didn’t learn form GM Wei or his teaching.

I am not going to give more direction for your improving to make it look more real. I have already know it is not real. And if the real one do not get recognition, then on one will want to be the fool.

And don’t embrrase others by using WuShu’s moves, such as running 2 steps before jump up and kick. It is invented by Communist China as a Gymnastic preforming. Notice that when GM Wei choose his books title, it is not 8 step mantis, it says practical mantis. It is so opposite of WuShu forms.

GM Wei especially hate people who claim they have a secret way that only taught to one person. There is a case when he cracked the person’s face open with Gua and Shuai hummerfist just because the person is braging about his ndefeatable secret hands that taught only to him.

Want to know and learn real GM Wei’s mantis, I can only help if the person is not involved with some one who invented his own style and claim under my grand master.

I will keep bring up the questions that you will have no answer of, and I will not give answer. Do what you want and people will see for themselves.

And it is vitally productive to know how to tell what is real and what is not.

33

How can you say you have learned real GM Wei’s way without even understand what is really means with his words?

Don’t espect any Chinese language learning can bill you out.

34

Originally posted by TRAVIS WHITMAN
Now now Andy, we have all seen this road before, let’s take a page from our elders and get back to productive mantis discussions. It is inappropriate for accomplished sifus to abuse those who can’t defend themselves, whether they ask for it or not. Your location and mine are very easy to find, people who really want to knock heads with us will do so without fanfare. Let’s ignore the paul lins of this world and move onward and upward.

If you learn form Shyun and what you have learned worked, I am happy for you. But if you think that is what GM Wei’s teaching, I will not agree. He should be bold enough to stand with his own invention and be proud of it when who he has taught made use to them. He has his own smartness, given his own time and effort in collecting form many other artists. If he insisted by under GM Wei, he will only show in time how much of GM Wei he didn’t know.

And if you don’t believe the real way is better, you can come down to Orange county too. If you have business mind over learning, I can tell that too.

35

Originally posted by PaulLin
[B]

If you learn form Shyun and what you have learned worked, I am happy for you. But if you think that is what GM Wei’s teaching, I will not agree. He should be bold enough to stand with his own invention and be proud of it when who he has taught made use to them. He has his own smartness, given his own time and effort in collecting form many other artists. If he insisted by under GM Wei, he will only show in time how much of GM Wei he didn’t know.

And if you don’t believe the real way is better, you can come down to Orange county too. If you have business mind over learning, I can tell that too. [/B]

Yes i have seen this before GM Shyun’s credability in question, yet he has his certificate to prove it. Also who are you to speak of Grandmaster Shyun in such a manner unless you have spoken to or met him. I’d advise meeting him, at his home in San Francisco and find out for yourself. Cides the purpose of GM is to make a style better or enhanced, is it not. Just a few things to think about. Now I am not trying to start anything, but first know who you are slandering in libel.

36

Originally posted by Andy Miles

Grandmaster Sun lives in LA.

Good to know will have to make a note of that, thanks Andy, as for PaulLin well can’t change what you think, but you should really know the person you are besmirching in Libel. Which also means you are besmirching the many students aswell.

37

Originally posted by Nick8stepPM
[B]

Good to know will have to make a note of that, thanks Andy, as for PaulLin well can’t change what you think, but you should really know the person you are besmirching in Libel. Which also means you are besmirching the many students aswell. [/B]

Don’t immagine you know who are you talking to. I don’t think, I know. Shyun’s family used to be my nightbor. His father used to treat me to a icecream when I was little. My father is his father’s friend and we known his family. My father has been with GM Wei about every days. It is not a opinion. What I have said is what you have never seen back in Taiwan about him. I felt sorry about you guys who have never seen his family was like we have, only lived in the fantacy kung fu world that he created here in USA, where no one can show you who was he back in Taiwan.

GM Wei never used papers to prove qualification as he himself didn’t need them. He used what he got in skill. He decieded to teach others by the personality. The proofs that Shyun’s posted needs a carbon analysis. Not to mention about GM Wei has never educated in Chinese literacy to write like that, and that is not his writing neither.

Don’t tell me that you don’t question about how Shyun can learn so much about GM Wei’s teaching and lived so closely with him, as he claimed, without even understand how GM Wei speak?

If you have a official turnament some where near Orange County and like to have a match, you can give me an invitation at <taichicklin@yahoo.com>. I can’t do any private/inofficial turnament since the law in US will give too much trouble for that.

If you think those Sanshou, copied Shuaichiao, or even copied BJJ can defeat the real GM Wei’s 8 step mantis, real GM Chang’s Shuai Chaio, real GM Han’s ChinNa, and real GM Wang’s HsingI/BaGua, you will be making a big mistake.

This is really for your education. I don’t need this for a mouth fight. My father is the official head disciple of both GM Wei and GM Chang. It passed down to me. Unless my father says other wise, according to the Chinese Martial Arts tradition, I have the right to say who is in GM Wei’s system and who is not. Well, now a days, not many people abide by that tradition when money is up on ahead.

This wasted my time too much, I hate to repeated this again and again. If Shyun never used his mis-claimed GM Wei’s relationship to threat the other real student of GM Wei to teach in the publics, such as what we have heard form Master Zhang JiaHuang, who called my father to complain Shyun’s threating him. I wouldn’t even bother to mentioned any of this worthless things at all. Shyun’s way of attracting students will only gain the students that we don’t even want to deal with. If the person only looking at the surface, fame, authority, and do not care about the heart, spirit, or deeper aspects, we don’t really interesting in dealing with teaching them. These kind of students should learn their own lesson with some one else.

The student we have taught will never fall for the surface, fame, and authority tricks. They only care about the deeper aspects.

I don’t want to given out any personal info. here since Shyun is know for his dirty trick back in Taiwan, incase you don’t know him back in Taiwan. If you want to meet me, I will need a public and neutral place and when I have time to attend. I am not teaching martial art for living, that is why I can teach the way I see it fit rather to fit the business survival rules. So I will need to have another way to support my financial, I am not as free as a Lottery winner.

38

Why should i believe you over someone else, i am only believeing in what i want to believe in, with each different person the Mantis history is different, that includes Grandmaster Wei, so in this scenario are you not doing the same thing. But in anycase i was and am still trying to get a copy of Wei’s book, and analyze it for myself, and because i am open to all things and other Martial Arts. Now i still will defend Grandmaster Shyun, only way that would be able to change i guess anyone’s mind is to expierence it for ourselves. Now as for money, what money as the ACMAF or rather simply put all of the school’s of the Shyun lineage across the US, are non-profit 501(c)(3) organizations. Anyhow for me personally i would have to expierence the differences. Now as for the inner aspects of MA that is why i started i always loved MA not just for the techniques but the inside, don’t know how to describe it but yeah, not here to say who’s right and who’s wrong but yeah just will have to see for myself sometime.

39

Originally posted by Nick8stepPM
Why should i believe you over someone else, i am only believeing in what i want to believe in, with each different person the Mantis history is different, that includes Grandmaster Wei, so in this scenario are you not doing the same thing. But in anycase i was and am still trying to get a copy of Wei’s book, and analyze it for myself, and because i am open to all things and other Martial Arts. Now i still will defend Grandmaster Shyun, only way that would be able to change i guess anyone’s mind is to expierence it for ourselves. Now as for money, what money as the ACMAF or rather simply put all of the school’s of the Shyun lineage across the US, are non-profit 501(c)(3) organizations. Anyhow for me personally i would have to expierence the differences. Now as for the inner aspects of MA that is why i started i always loved MA not just for the techniques but the inside, don’t know how to describe it but yeah, not here to say who’s right and who’s wrong but yeah just will have to see for myself sometime.

It is good to have your own individual research. You do want to believe in what you can comprehend, and what you believed in will lead you to reach to the consiquence that comes with it.

Like many questions I have brought up before, Shyun can never come up with his father’s business name and position/title as he claim he was a rich business man. He can never give you his old address nor GM Wei’s address in Taiwan. He can never give you the exactly time and location of all the turnaments he have won. The best he can do is turn away and pretend that you have no right to question his statement. These are traceable and he can’t back them up. The people who have asked him and know he has lied will be kicked out of his system and marked as enemy and therefore, will bad mouth about him.

Why don’t you ask him these traceable questions yourself and see if he can back them up?

I have heard form many of his ex-students about how much money they paid to get a belt, certificate(some time never got them after paid for thousands of bucks), mirical medicine that don’t work, and special training camps that just like army camp. Just go ask these ex-students and you will hear it first hand. I have no first hand information of such, so I can only tell you that is what I have heard form his other ex-students.

Form my opinion and experience, Shyun does has the love for kung fu and he is very creative. But I see the true way need spirit, mind, chi, and body all harmonized into one unit to achieve. That is if you separate these in order to achieve such as fame, glories, or authority, then you can never own the true way. He had the chance but he missed it. It is too bad that he see only by separate his spirit, mind, chi, and body that he may survive and success.

40

Since paullin won’t put up or shut up maybe it’s time to consider shutting this thread down. Moderator’s call, but I think everyone would like to see some new mantis discussion preferably on a different subject. Those still interested in argueing James Sun’s qualifications can check out the threads from last year and the year before that. I can assure everyone that he doesn’t care what the lin people think or say. Let’s move onward and upward.