I can see what you are saying Gene, I’m sure there are traditional forms taught at the temple. What I’m wondering is if the traditional curriculum that is taught there is really the original Shaolin system, or is it a mix of other traditional systems brought there from outside the temple only recently. I read that Northern Shaolin was the the original curriculum taught at the temple, but that it is no longer taught there. I know that the five animals was supposedly part of the original curriculum, do they still practice that there at least, and I don’t mean the modern wu shu animal forms.
What I’ve been told:
Basically, when the temple was renovated after Jet Li’s Shaolin Temple movie, a new Shaolin base of knowledge was developed by combining what some of the local villiage masters knew and combining that with modern and traditional forms brought in from outside. Some forms are straight up traditional, others are completely modern, and some are “retro fitted” modern forms(contemporary forms altered to apear more traditional). A lot had also been lost over the years between the place getting burned down in the early 20th century and the damage of the cultural revolution, and I’ve been told some lineages and texts were forged. I’ve got no idea what specifically was changed.
It was after meeting a student of the NYC Shaolin temple that my hate for Wushu emerged. I was at a BBQ and quietly watched this clown showoff forms for 45 minutes. When it was over, I intercepted him alone going to the beach and asked if he can show me how to use some of that stuff and held my arm out in the traditional “don’t worry, I won’t do anything let’s make believe this is a punch” fashion, and nothing. Admitted they only do form.
I never saw this before because my karate background had form, but we sparred on a regular basis. As I got deeper into Kung Fu I realised this guy was the rule, not the exception.
Anyway, anyone here competing in the Wong Fei Hung in Sept?
evo,
i’ve heard u tell that story before,
it must have reeeeaaaalllly irked you.
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Anyway, anyone here competing in the Wong Fei Hung in Sept?
I’ll probably end up there.
lkfmdc
Well, the big difference between your analogy and my observation is that the housing projects are based on poverty and the schools of shaolin are based on martial arts. Although that does bring up a big factor with shaolin and sanda specifically. The students don’t eat well usually. Low protein intake. So they don’t get that big. That presents a handicap, especially when the big gun foreigners come in.
Now if your comparing shaolin’s sanda to the national team, of course shaolin will be lower. When shaolin fighters get to the national team level, they leave shaolin and join the national team. Shaolin has fielded some national champs over the years. Once they reach that level, they move on.
This bring up another aspect of shaolin sanda. Sanda is relatively new to shaolin. It only been practiced there for the last decade or so, and it is definately not the speciality of shaolin. Just like wushu and tae kwon do, it’s a new game there. The strength of shaolin is its traditional. And traditional shaolin hand techniques are mostly chin na, which doesn’t play in sanda so much (in fact, that was why there was a movement away from the term sanshou in PRC - since there is no ‘na’, just ‘da’).
Personally, I think shaolin sanda has two weaknesses. One is that they tend to not be big punchers and a good boxer who can suck up some hard hits and get inside can do well against them. The other, and this is related, is that they are incestuous about who they practice with, meaning that at shaolin, for the most part, they only spar against other shaolin practitioners. Thei makes their fights very clean - the internal sanda tournament are ajoy to watch because they’re so clean - but it also means they can be jammed by outsiders. Both factors are changing as they are learning from visitors.
Don’t let a few pompous american students taint your image of shaolin. Sure there’s some bad apples in the basket, that comes with every martial art. The bottom line is that Shaolin is so huge that there’s an incredible range of what it produces, not just monks, but students, and to dismiss it all is a serious oversight.
Re: lkfmdc
Originally posted by GeneChing
[B]
Sanda is relatively new to shaolin. It only been practiced there for the last decade or so, and it is definately not the speciality of shaolin.
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Which begs the question of why some of the so called “monks” here in the US claim to be San Shou champions from the 1970’s and claim that they are so “special” doing so called “Shaolin San Shou” :rolleyes:
Originally posted by GeneChing
[B]
Don’t let a few pompous american students taint your image of shaolin.
[/B]
oh, you got me wrong Gene, it’s the pompus CHinese masters that taint my image of shaolin :rolleyes:
Call a spade a spade
My guess is that the monks in question have their citizenship. That makes them Americans. 
Ever since they kicked Haidang Faht Si out of Shaolin, or rather, his students (he died if I remember correctly :mad: ) I"ve had nothing but experiences which lead me to believe Shaolin is a myth and a fraud…
My teacher is no monk, but as an orphan he was raised in a monastery. He asked one of the so called monks to chant for him, my teacher literally knows hundreds of chants from being raised in the monastery, and the so called monk had no clue
I was doing contemporary wushu in the 1980’s, hanging out with guys who trained in both Beijing and Nanjing. I just love when I see sequences we used to do in contemporary wushu being passed off as tradtional sets (insert sarcasm here).
One of the so called “monks” teaches the IWUF standardized long fist set and calls it “hong quan” :rolleyes:
My teacher was also famous for his hard Qi Gong and so I’ve yet to be impressed by any of the carnival students 99% of them do, the only exception is Shi Guolin, who let a student of mine literally beat on him until my student got tired :eek:
Of course, Guolin says he learned that outside of Shaolin and that his martial arts actually DIMINISHED while at Shaolin
Of course, my latest pet peeve is them all jumping on the San Shou/San Da bandwagon when most are completely clueless. As I said here about 4 million times, one of teh monks talked a lot of shiiittteeee about us until I sent him a formal challenge letter. Funny, but he shut up real quick :o
DId I mention that for a big “san shou champion” none of his students ever spar? That’s becuase they aren’t “fourth level monks” yet :rolleyes:
Yeah, you guessed it, you have to pay a large sum to become a “fourth level monk”…
Did I mention the blond girlfriends with big boobies? (not that I’m opposed to big boobies mind you!), the pork, the beer and the gambling?
Did I mention the blond girlfriends with big boobies? (not that I’m opposed to big boobies mind you!), the pork, the beer and the gambling?
C’mon, LKFMDC. We all know those are special boobies, just like beer is special water.
Well, I’ll tell you a secret as long as you promise not to tell anyone else
Seeing as I’ve been known to be involved with an Asian lady or two (or three) over they years, I guess I can’t blame a guy fresh of the plane from China for exploring the world of blonds 
Everytime the mom asks why “you always have a new girl comming in and out?”
I simply say “Variety is the spice of life.”
OK, you threw me with the blonde boobies
I though I knew of whom you were talking about but now I’m not so sure.
Anyway, it’s interesting that you cite both Guolin and Haideng. Both are from Shaolin of course, but both also trained elsewhere. Actually, my master, Shi Decheng trained elsewhere too. A lot of Shaolin monks trained elsewhere, but they are still part of the Shaolin fold. Again, that raises the question of the magnitude of Shaolin. Just because they trained elsewhere, does it mean that they are not Shaolin? You said you trained in wushu - does that make you not sanshou? Of course not. It’s all part of the warrior journey - we all explore different roads. What is interesting is that people like Guolin and Haideng retain the Shaolin name, even amongst a lot of less reputable masters.
Now don’t get me wrong. Given Shaolin’s magnitude, that definately widens the magnitude for charlatans. But don’t lose sight of the yang in the yin, and vice versa.
we’ve found Gene’s weakness, he gets thrown off by blond boobies
I have some more thoughts, but it’s almost 2 pm and that’s my time to do my stuff… I shall return
In the meantime, anyone else remember one of the Shaolin monks smacking the crap out of Shawn Liu at one of the events?
As we both know, politics and history is that Shaolin was empty for periods of modern time, there is no “unbroken” line going back in Shaolin. NO one can say that every teacher in their lineage was a monk doing shaolin AT shaolin, living there unbroken from the Ming Dynasty and before.
Hai Dang was chosen because he was two things
- a legit Buddhist monk
- a legit Luohan practicioner, from a lineage that can be verified back to Shaolin, ie, while Haideng learned outside Shaolin, his own teacher probably did as well, if you go back in the tree you’ll find a pre-burning Shaolin monk.
Luohan Men is one of a very select few lineages that can be verified to Shaolin without doubt…
Guolin is a “shaolin monk” because he went to Shaolin to become a Buddist monk there. HIs martial arts I"d probably argue are NOT shaolin. Unless you subscribe to the Chinese view that ALL martial arts come at some point from Shaolin, which I think we can both concede aint true
What? You aren’t affected by blonde boobies?
Come on now, be honest.
I do remember Shawn getting in a scuffle with a Shaolin monk at Taiji Legacy several years ago. There were three monks there. Do you remember who it was?
There were a few that stayed at Shaolin as long as they could. Xingzhen, Suxi and Suyan were at Shaolin for most of the last century. They may have left for short periods - Suxi says he never left beyond travels to other monasteries. Suyan and xingzhen did say that they left for a short period during the CR, but then returned. Only Suxi is still alive and he has many disciples, Shawn being one of them.
Guolin was originally from Henan, born to a Buddhist family. He actually took his monk vows at another temple, Yunmushan, in Jiangsu. He transfered to Shaolin and was actually expelled for oversleeping once. Now he’s a dharma heir of Abbot Yongxin, next in line for the abbacy. While he has some family kung fu that he practices, his main emphasis is on yijinjing which he considers the core of his practice.
Haideng was an honorary abbot of Shaolin. This was part of the first wave of reconstruction. He was actually the first Shaolin representative to come to the states - he came out here to the City of 10,000 Buddhas in Ukiah, CA.
So you can argue that both of these monks are NOT Shaolin, but that’s a bit absurd given that they both call themselves Shaolin and have both held the highest honors of Shaolin.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=122
well Gene, one of the obvious questions would be, what do these “honors” mean when they can be simply BOUGHT?
I respect guys like Guolin because at least he is honest about who he is, what he is, how he ended up in Shaolin, etc…
Guys who showed up at Shaolin in the last 10 years, bought a lineage, then talk about how they were raised there, well, they’re j e rks IMHO…
And you have to wonder how a self respecting monk accepts “disciples” such as them?
oh, but I love the over sleeping story, that is why I am not a monk of Shaolin, I’d over sleep every morning
buying lineage
That’s a bit of a strange one really. Many of the monks are open to layman disciples, that’s true, and there is a traditional bai see, a dowry if you will, in any Chinese disiple ceremony. But this happens in any style. Often it’s interpreted to mean more than it does, or pawned off to mean more, and I suppose it’s the latter that is more offensive. Do some monks sell discipleships? Well, I have encountered people that have posed as monks selling discipleships. There was even a private ‘entrepenuer’ who was selling Shaolin master degrees at his school, but he was eventually shut down. So again, there’s clearly problems with charlatanism, but that exists in every style, although I’d admit, it’s probably the least in Sanshou, since that’s really all about your fight record. I suppose a lot of it has to do with the religious element of Shaolin monks, so it seems a greater offense than a regular charlatan master. Did you read my cover story on fake monks?
In the meantime, anyone else remember one of the Shaolin monks smacking the crap out of Shawn Liu at one of the events?
I do remember Shawn getting in a scuffle with a Shaolin monk at Taiji Legacy several years ago. There were three monks there. Do you remember who it was?
Don’t leave me hanging, tell the story ****it LOL. All I ever hear is how great a fighter he is, I never heard a story about him getting smacked around, by a Shaolin monk lol.
oh and I have question, do any of the southern shaolin styles resemble the traditional shaolin forms now practiced at the temple, or have they diverged to the point of looking completely unrelated