[QUOTE=tjwingchun;836747]My Chinese is basically non-existant, back in 1985 I attended a Wong Shun Leung seminar and after a discussion with the host Nino, my Sifu pulled me up asking why I said I did not know the fundemental “stay with what comes, follow what retreats and if nothing there attack”, I replied off course I knew it, the problem was Nino asked me if I knew these words in Chinese format and though I knew the meaning and practice I did not know it in Chinese.
I have stayed away from using Chinese terminology apart from the very basic terms because in my mind there is too much personalisation in the translations, I use the movemnts and theories of the forms to guide my thinking and teaching, but that is just my way.
[/QUOTE]
Cool, back to the names of the punches.
Addendum on punches
CFT: Thanks
Lone Tiger: the “8” is just one way of organizing the punches, based on directions from ygkym.
Its not the only way- no dogma involved. Many Chinese (and Indian) disciplines and teachers organize knowledge of subjects by using numbers.Can also help auto-recollection in practice.
Different angles. Practicing in different directions and using hand motions that can help you loosen up and avoid being tight.
From the 8 one can go in many many more directions assuming that the structure and the dynamics are right.
After slt— the other forms and even weapon work adds various elements to the punches.The motions for all 8 are in the forms…another reason for knowing and understanding the forms.
Phil- no need to apologize. Not all cantonese are scholars.Correct that there isnt a r sound
in chair kuen. Some can and do use romanization that they think will help others in remembering labels-it’s not the “r” sound. The label should be “heard” from a native speaker. Even then there are differences in pronounciation by native speakers depending on where they came from or where their families originated… fatshan, toishan etc. Even then there are differences related to class and education. The Yale Romanization is nice but not as unversally used compared to settled mandarin romanization.
Long live Cantonese anarchy and non regimentation!.
tj..??: Understood the importance of avoiding confusion. I am not in the WSL line though I respect that line. As was shown in the U tube video of a WSL seminar.. wing chun punches should be fluid and hit in different directions with power without retraction..when someone moves their head.
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;836719]…To you it may not be important and that’s all good but I come from a background in NYC’s Chinatown where the prevailing opinion was the Westerners were not to be accepted or
weren’t able to get the nuances of Chinese martial arts. One of the things used against us was language…[/QUOTE]
Sorry to have our wires crossed Phil, but I never meant that I thought that language was not important! People who know me, or follow my posts to an extent, will know that I feel that language is of upmost importance in learning any Cultural Art, which is what Kung Fu actually is imo.
I’m from London, and we also have a Chinatown and community where we suffer from the same prejudices you describe. Even now. Personally, it’s completley individual. I know Sifus who have been teaching for years and never studied language, and it’s fine by me! I just could never have learnt what I have without the language imo.
Oh! And I wanted to return to the subject of the thread too!! 
So here goes…
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;836719]…Lone Tiger: the “8” is just one way of organizing the punches, based on directions from ygkym.[/QUOTE]
Interesting point Joy, does this mean that your eight directions are the same as the eight points of a compass? Or do you mean similar to drawing a circle in front of you? I know of a training like this called Baat Min (Eight Faces) or even Baat Gwa (Eight Gates) but it wouldn’t be how I personally remember the signature fistwork of Wing Chun (if there is any!!!)…
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;836605]It’s Hung Ga, not Hung Gar. Think of it like this. People who didn’t know how to Romanize the Chinese language just used approximations. I will say it again. THERE ARE NO “R” SOUNDS IN THE CANTONESE DIALECT. There are “r” sounds in Mandarin.
Yale University’s Romanization is considered one of the best for Cantonese. The U.S. Dept. of Foreign Service uses it. That’s the one I learned. I’ve even heard a story that Bruce Lee made one of the writters on The Game of Death mad so he added lots of “r” sounds to Bruce’s dialogue to mess him up. My Sifu uses Larp sao but says lop sao. A native Chinese speaker doesn’t learn Chinese with Roman letters so they basically write what they think a westerner might understand. Remember Lethal Weapon 4
Uncle Benny: Flied lice? It’s fried rice, you plick. That was a play on the fact that Cantonese has no ‘r’.[/QUOTE]
I know that it SHOULD be written Hung Ga, I was wondering where the “gar” cam from, Mandarin perhaps?
Why do so many still use the “r” ?
Chow Gar
Hung Gar
Chu Gar
etc…
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;836835]I know that it SHOULD be written Hung Ga, I was wondering where the “gar” cam from, Mandarin perhaps?
Why do so many still use the “r” ?
Chow Gar
Hung Gar
Chu Gar
etc…[/QUOTE]
I can only guess that it’s become one of the accepted spellings. I’ll PM you so we don’t hijack this thread.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;836869]I can only guess that it’s become one of the accepted spellings. I’ll PM you so we don’t hijack this thread.[/QUOTE]
Osu !
Domo Sifu-San !
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;836835]I know that it SHOULD be written Hung Ga, I was wondering where the “gar” cam from, Mandarin perhaps?
Why do so many still use the “r” ?
Chow Gar
Hung Gar
Chu Gar
etc…[/QUOTE]
I suspect some other romanisation by us demned Eengleesh peegs! Don’t forget, we don’t pronounce your silly 'r’s a the end of a word anyway (and nor do the third of US citizens who don’t speak Standard Midwestern)! The ‘r’ and the end of say ‘gar’ would denote a long ‘a’ sound as opposed to a short ‘ga’ as in ‘gagaga’ as in baby noise.
So, to punching…
Trevor, do you not think the mechanics between 3, 4, 6 and 8 (for a start) are not sufficiently different to the ‘standard’ punch to warrant further distinction? I can well appreciate your mania for simplifying everything (as a Brummie - you ARE a Geordie, right?! :eek: 
:D) but I don’t really get where you’re coming from in this case.
Spencer asks:
Interesting point Joy, does this mean that your eight directions are the same as the eight points of a compass?
More to do with distance, direction, position and angles-but you can still cover points on a compass.When you add the chor ma/chum kiu motions- the distinctions become even more clear.
Mr Punch is correct on the Rs in some of the Queen’s English and the variations in the R in various US regional pronounciations.
The alphabet is not always isomorphic with the sounds.
Phil is correct on R asa sound.Even though I spell chair kuen- the coruption excusing my accent is different- no R sound. Similarly can be spelled hung gar but the r is silent and ergo more like hung ga.
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;837261]Trevor, do you not think the mechanics between 3, 4, 6 and 8 (for a start) are not sufficiently different to the ‘standard’ punch to warrant further distinction? I can well appreciate your mania for simplifying everything (as a Brummie - you ARE a Geordie, right?! :eek: :D) but I don’t really get where you’re coming from in this case.[/QUOTE]
The only punch I teach that is essentially different is the phoenix eye, the various angles in my mind do not make a punch different, the knowledge of punching from the variety of directions is important but to me that is more the understanding of application rather than defining a separate entity.
- chair kuen = pulling vertical punch
- chaap kuen = low punch
- ngoi faan kuen = inside whip punch
- hoi faan kuen = outside whip punch
- doi gok kuen = diagonal punch
- chour kuen = hammerfist
- joong-lo kuen = drilling punch
- tai kuen = raising punch
3 sounds to me like innergate punching, 4 outergate, 6 I personally have never thought of as a Wing Chun punch and 8 simply punching when the hand is low down which I teach from the ending of Chum Kiu.
My basic punch changes and develops with the increase of understanding the different energies that are available from the forms, simple arm/shoulder in Siu Lim Tau, turning using leg, hip and waist and back from Chum Kiu, from Biu Gee there are lifting and shoulder projection energies.
These energies when bolted onto the basic punch change the energy transfer but in essence do not change the mechanics of the punch at the point of contact, just make it more complex.
So why do I view the punch as the same when it looks so different, because it has grown from an infant to a fully functioning adult that has the ability to solve the problems it faces, not just respond with answers to questions it has already heard. Yet it is still called the same name.
Mr Punch lol.
[QUOTE=tjwingchun;837663]1. chair kuen = pulling vertical punch
2. chaap kuen = low punch
3. ngoi faan kuen = inside whip punch
4. hoi faan kuen = outside whip punch
5. doi gok kuen = diagonal punch
6. chour kuen = hammerfist
7. joong-lo kuen = drilling punch
8. tai kuen = raising punch[/QUOTE]
Fascinating to see a list of punches like this really. I would normally start with a Tan Sau Kuen, then Fook Sau Kuen and Bong Sau Kuen before using any terminology that suggests it’s ‘use’.
3 seeds of the fist striking all nine gates, inside/outside, upwards/downwards! Let’s see, that would make … er … 108 fists!
Must be a coincidence?
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;837668] 108 fists!
QUOTE]
You have been watching TOOOO much “Lost” :eek:
[QUOTE=tjwingchun;837670]You have been watching TOOOO much “Lost” :eek:[/QUOTE]
Maybe! You do know the magical value of 8 though right? It’s all endless, kinda like the Chun…
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;837671]Maybe! You do know the magical value of 8 though right? It’s all endless, kinda like the Chun…[/QUOTE]
Sorry the knowledge of the lone “fat lady” has eluded me, I am not a follower of numerology
[QUOTE=tjwingchun;837673]Sorry the knowledge of the lone “fat lady” has eluded me, I am not a follower of numerology [/QUOTE]
I was referring to the Baat Gwa Trevor! Interesting concept, considering it’s Taoist ‘I Ching’ roots.