I just got hold of a wall bag and wanted to start encorporating it into my training. I have filled the top section with chickpeas, middle with sand, and the bottom with chickpeas also.
I wanted to know if there are any safety issues similar to iron palm training…is the wall bag inherently the same thing as iron palm? Should I use jow on my hands before and after using it? I’m a product designer so need to keep my hands in working condition so I can continue to be able to sketch/draw
Craig,
If you are new to hand training, I would suggest sand in each bag and work up to beans. Dit da jow is also a good idea. Safety first!
With hand conditioning, slow is best in the long run.
If your hands are important for your work, as mine are for my work in the medical field, take the least risk possible with them.
Just to confuse things for you, I would suggest you do NOT use sand at all, it compacts to a concretion and is not good for conditioning hands because it is no longer movable at that point.
fill them all with beans.
use them til teh beans are dust.
then fill them with smooth small river pebbles
use them until those are dust
fill them with bb’s or iron shot afetr lining the bag with leather to prevent inhalation of metal dust.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;989566]Just to confuse things for you, I would suggest you do NOT use sand at all, it compacts to a concretion and is not good for conditioning hands because it is no longer movable at that point.
fill them all with beans.
use them til teh beans are dust.
then fill them with smooth small river pebbles
use them until those are dust
fill them with bb’s or iron shot afetr lining the bag with leather to prevent inhalation of metal dust.
bang away.[/QUOTE]
The above advice is a nearly foolproof way of injuring your hands. :eek:
When the sand in the sandbags becomes hard simply massage the sandbags to break up the sand.
Condition the hands with sand for a few months before attempting beans. Rushing to beans in a hanging bag will certainly injure your hands.
If I remember correctly, Gene or Gino can correct me if I am wrong, the Ku Yu Cheong lineage of iron palm recommends at least 3 months of practice with sand before changing to beans.
NEVER use iron shot! Though bbs are fine during the final stages of iron palm training. Again, if memory serves me right, bbs are not recommended till after a few years of bean training in the Ku Yu Cheong lineage.
BTW, Ku Yu Cheong was once of the most famous iron palm experts of modern times. So, I’ll take their methods.
Iron Shot!!! You getting me back David for the so-called ‘racist thread’ I posted a few months back
Anyways thanks guys for the info, i’ve never done any hand conditioning before so I’m wanting to get this right.
So a 3 section bag is inherently the same thing as iron palm training…just uses the fits instead.
I understand the point about sand compacting to concretion, but then as MYM says, I could work the sand back loose again.
The chick peas are too painful ATM…I might fill it with black beans or corn, that might be a better start
In terms of jow, im just using LKWs green ‘Wiset Oil’ along with his Dit Da Jow. Will this be sufficient? Is it a case of soaking the hands in a solution or simply massaging it into the knuckles etc before and after.
Also I vaguely remember people on an iron palm thread mentioned about relaxing the hand when striking the ironpalm pack…I’m guessing this doesn’t apply to the 3 section bag and I can just go at the thing?
I’m a total noob to this sort of training, so I apologise for asking what may seem to be obvious questions!
Craig,
Massaging the jow in before and after is the method I would suggest. It is also best to know if the jow you are using was meant to be used hot or cold. Different formulas require different uses.
I have never used LKW’s jow. So, I can’t comment on it. I have used Kwong Wing Lam’s and Mike Biggie’s in the past. Both worked fine. Currently, we use one that I cook.
Again, let me repeat what I said in my original posts: start SLOW and build on that. Doing it slow and properly is much faster than adding in “time outs” due to injuries from trying to build too fast.
Just out of curiosity, is the three bag training for CLF?
There is not much safety issue in the training with bags in general. That includes the 3 section wall bag. By inference, there is also not much chance to use medication like jow. What I mean is that injuring ourself is unlikely. My only worry is the health of the wall behind the bag. Over time, the decoration of the wall might comes off. I have seen that before.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;989589]The above advice is a nearly foolproof way of injuring your hands. :eek:
When the sand in the sandbags becomes hard simply massage the sandbags to break up the sand.
Condition the hands with sand for a few months before attempting beans. Rushing to beans in a hanging bag will certainly injure your hands.
If I remember correctly, Gene or Gino can correct me if I am wrong, the Ku Yu Cheong lineage of iron palm recommends at least 3 months of practice with sand before changing to beans.
NEVER use iron shot! Though bbs are fine during the final stages of iron palm training. Again, if memory serves me right, bbs are not recommended till after a few years of bean training in the Ku Yu Cheong lineage.
BTW, Ku Yu Cheong was once of the most famous iron palm experts of modern times. So, I’ll take their methods.
Richard[/QUOTE]
The method from Ku yu-cheong does not use a wall bag at all. It’s quite well known and tehre are books about just the iron palm.
It uses a single bag on a horizontal platform and the starting media is mung beans, the secondary media is river stone and the third media is shot. The shot requires and extra liner in the bag.
Sand is NOT a good media to put in there because it doesn’t absorb force. It is too small and will go hard in two or three strikes. Use Mung beans first.
Sorry for the confusion to the original poster, but MYM I think you are dead wrong about using sand. And to the original poster, if you do not have a sifu guiding you in this who has been guided themselves through the method, then you are taking a risk here.
isnt there supposed to be some quality to the mung beans, thats why people use them over other beans? idk but i remember hearing about it, sometime from someone somewhere i cant remember.
The conditioning method IS myng beans 3-6 mos, gravel 6-12 mos, and then steel shot. You can get Ku Yu Cheongs Dit Da Jow from sifu Mike Biggie, who I would highly recomend. Its cheaper to get a gallons worth of herbs and mix it yourself. But then you have to wait about 2 months for it to brew, but his is the best I’ve used.
[QUOTE=lost lohan;991295]The conditioning method IS myng beans 3-6 mos, gravel 6-12 mos, and then steel shot. You can get Ku Yu Cheongs Dit Da Jow from sifu Mike Biggie, who I would highly recomend. Its cheaper to get a gallons worth of herbs and mix it yourself. But then you have to wait about 2 months for it to brew, but his is the best I’ve used.[/QUOTE]
After checking with a friend who is an instructor in the Ku Yu Cheong lineage I must admit that I was wrong about the use of sand. Mung beans are the first part of the training. I was speaking from memory, which in my case is not always a good reference. My apologies!
Lost Lohan’s description is the newer revised method. The old school method required much longer time between moving on to a different striking medium. For example, 3 times a day for 2 years on mung beans till gravel was used. Chi gong exercises are also a required part of the KYC iron palm training.
I have done two methods of IP:
The standard method of various substances working your way up to Iron and the one that starts right off with iron ( though it tends to be geared towards those that have some conditioning already).
Done properly both methods work very well and the direct to iron was just fine and I had no problem with it at all.
You MUST use very good/strong jow from the very beginning though.
As for the hanging bags, I use iron pellets and it worked fine.
You just need to remember that you are NOT drilling full force.
The “forging” process is a slow process and rushing it is when you get hurt.
Every thing I’ve learned says not to go to iron or steal right away! When it comes to the hands I tend to be more carefull, I for instance used mung beans 1-3 times a day for approx. 4 years. I then worked on gravel for about 6 years, and have been using steel shot for 1 year. A fyi about steel shot bags…you can go to Cabela’s and get steel shot for reloading there. Take two five pound bags and combine them in one bag. Then cover a second time with the extra bag. Steel bird shot comes in a nice canvas bag already. Three minutes of sewing and you save approx. 80.00 over buying one. Then as you wear them out, save the shot and put them in a nice canvas commercial bag till full. You can also get realy nice canvas bags from warrior martial arts supply, they double stitch the canvas so it lasts longer. Just some tips from a cheap cheap person.
And yes what I posted was the newer method, as there is alot more info on it. But yes everything I’ve learned is slow and steady wins the race!
Hanging wall bags are usually treated differently than iron palm training because most wall bags are meant to be struck with fist attacks rather than more meaty parts of the hand like iron palm. Really there is a system to this that is more than the product of a simple thread. Pick someone (a local teacher, an internet correspondence, whatever) and spend the time to go through all the details with them. If you have qeustions and they cant provide specific concise and rational answers, move on. Its not rocket science, its relaly all quite simple…but there are some common pitfalls.
With fist strikes on a wall bag, you need to still go slow so you dont damage the knuckles, but you also should be more careful about putting things like iron, steel, or lead shot in these bags. If you want to issue power and work on power development on a wall bag, you should stick with something less dense and less hard, such as gravel or rice. Rice is a very good choice because on top of being lower in density, it has a relatively low hardness rating (Brinell hardness is about 1/100 of steel, for example), so it will not cause serious problems when doing initial knuckle conditioning.
[QUOTE=lost lohan;992670]Every thing I’ve learned says not to go to iron or steal right away! When it comes to the hands I tend to be more carefull, I for instance used mung beans 1-3 times a day for approx. 4 years. I then worked on gravel for about 6 years, and have been using steel shot for 1 year.[/quote]Personally, for iron palm type training, I feel the only reason to ever touch beans is until a student gets down the feel of the strikes. One or 2 months as a basic start and then they should be off to gravel, and really theres little reason why one cant start on gravel. Three months on gravel is plenty, and then on up to some kind of shot. Wallbag training is no different with iron palm type strikes; for fist strikes, be more conservative.
Of course, thats just my opinion, many people train in many different ways and still obtain results. I just think that youre cheating yoruself by keeping away from shot for more than a few months in the beginning with palm strikes…
Steel bird shot comes in a nice canvas bag already. Three minutes of sewing and you save approx. 80.00 over buying one.
You can buy a well-made vinyl-lined canvas bag for way less than $80. We sell em for $20.
[QUOTE=PlumDragon;992741]Hanging wall bags are usually treated differently than iron palm training because most wall bags are meant to be struck with fist attacks rather than more meaty parts of the hand like iron palm. Really there is a system to this that is more than the product of a simple thread. Pick someone (a local teacher, an internet correspondence, whatever) and spend the time to go through all the details with them. If you have qeustions and they cant provide specific concise and rational answers, move on. Its not rocket science, its relaly all quite simple…but there are some common pitfalls.
With fist strikes on a wall bag, you need to still go slow so you dont damage the knuckles, but you also should be more careful about putting things like iron, steel, or lead shot in these bags. If you want to issue power and work on power development on a wall bag, you should stick with something less dense and less hard, such as gravel or rice. Rice is a very good choice because on top of being lower in density, it has a relatively low hardness rating (Brinell hardness is about 1/100 of steel, for example), so it will not cause serious problems when doing initial knuckle conditioning.
Personally, for iron palm type training, I feel the only reason to ever touch beans is until a student gets down the feel of the strikes. One or 2 months as a basic start and then they should be off to gravel, and really theres little reason why one cant start on gravel. Three months on gravel is plenty, and then on up to some kind of shot. Wallbag training is no different with iron palm type strikes; for fist strikes, be more conservative.
Of course, thats just my opinion, many people train in many different ways and still obtain results. I just think that youre cheating yoruself by keeping away from shot for more than a few months in the beginning with palm strikes…
You can buy a well-made vinyl-lined canvas bag for way less than $80. We sell em for $20.[/QUOTE]
Do you sell wall bags too?
In regards to your IP vinyl lined bags, do you sell them filled as well as unfilled?
We dont currently sell wallbags but we make everything in-house from scratch and have taken custom orders on that sort of thing before.
As of now we do not sell the vinyl-lined bags pre-filled, primarily because of the weight involved with shipping a 50+ lbs bag. Filling one with rice or beans and stitching it up prior to shipment would be no problem, although I imagine that wouldnt be what youre looking for…If you want the bag prefilled with somethign else, contact me off-forum and we can talk about it…
We dont sell wallbags but we make everything in-house from scratch and have taken custom orders on that sort of thing before.
As of now we do not sell the vinyl-lined bags pre-filled, primarily because of the weight involved with shipping a 50+ lbs bag. Filling one with rice or beans and stitching it up prior to shipment would be no problem, although I imagine that wouldnt be what youre looking for… ;)[/QUOTE]
My IP bag is a few years old and I was thinking of getting a new one.
I will PM you
Hey PlumDragon What I was talking about was the canvas IP bags filled with steel shot costing 90.00-150.00 plus shipping. The bird shot(steel not lead) costs about 30.00 for two 5 pound bags that come in canvas already. Just combine in one bag sew shut and cover with extra bag, with your new seam on the inside. So that would save the average practitioner 40.00-120.00 on 1 bag filled. The finished bag is aprox. 6" x 11", which will cover most of your strikes. And rather than throwing out a worn bag I’m all for buying a bag from you, I just bought a bag that I fill with steel from my worn bags. And the only reason to continue use of the mung bean bag is warm ups and the idea that many IP masters believe that the powder that is produced is good for fortifying the skin. In my case as I could afford to, I moved up.
Do you double stitch your seams? I ask because the cheaper wholesale bags tend to blow out to easily. 1 row of thread doesn’t seem to cut it with hard use.
[QUOTE=lost lohan;992988]And the only reason to continue use of the mung bean bag is warm ups and the idea that many IP masters believe that the powder that is produced is good for fortifying the skin.[/quote]Well, thats the antiquated theory. In actuality, you get nothing from mung bean dust created within a bag. Many people claim that the dust comes through the bag and mixes with the jow and a bunch of other hoopla. This is silly, the herbal action comes from the jow, nothing medicinally useful seaps out of the bag, especially if its lined with vinyl.
Best off to just start with gravel, IMO and move to shot sooner than later.
[QUOTE=lost lohan;992988]Do you double stitch your seams? I ask because the cheaper wholesale bags tend to blow out to easily. 1 row of thread doesn’t seem to cut it with hard use.:)[/QUOTE]Its a zigzag double-stitch, we make the bags with a professional sewing machine. The bags last.
