“…people shouldn’t generalize too much by saying elbow, punch or kick, etc… range, IMO it should be more dynamic.”
I agree with that. That’s why I tried to use generic terms when listing possible attacks from the ranges and why I have them blend together so much. I also agree with KC about certain attacks being more likely to happen at a certain distance.
“Hey you forgot midair range.”
Northern Mantis,
I included a couple of “flying attacks” within my ranges .
“There is only one fighting range. That is the contact range. If there is no contact, there is no fight. Long range, medium range, short range, etc. all these ranges will have to make contact with the opponent.”
That’s a copout answer, Wingman . Wouldn’t you agree that some attacks become more or less likely to land at different distances?
“MonkeySlap on the other hand is a brutal b@stard that likes to throw people around, so to him, the only real range of fighting is clinch. kicking and punching are not really ranges, but merely a means of getting into the “real” range.”
When I grow up, I want to be just like MonkeySlap .
This also would be determined by your schools doctrine. Different schools LOOK at thier relationship rto thier opponent differently. How they view it determines thier strategies and tactics. (More often than not, how they fail to have a doctrine results in a lack of true strategies and tactics and wasted training time).
You can choose to look at it that way. Or you can break it down a dozen other ways. In an excellent article on this same topic by Scott Sonnon, he compared the training philosophies of BJJ and ROSS. How each art interprets thier doctrine determines thier training methodology. To paraphrase, BJJ wants you in the gaurd. This is viewed as one of several dominant positions they seek. Ross / Sambo wants to be in the gaurd, as thier doctrine is based on breaking legs. Which is best? That is really determined on the purpose the arty was developed for. BJJ is for winning mano a mano street fights and ring matches. Sambo is for special forces ops (you break a guys leg, it takes two soilders to out of the fight. The injured guy, and a guy to carry him.)
To each practitioner is the job of understanding why thier school teaches the way they do, and see how that improves thier results. But Doctrine varies. What is good for one school is not really going to work for another - because of the different strategies and tactics, plus the guiding purpose of the school.
Schools and styles are much more than just a collection of techniques and forms you’ve got to memorize to ‘get’ it. Identifying the doctrine of the school in which you train can help you better understand what is taught, teach you to understand how to use it to fight other schools training doctrines and give purpose to the material.
‘Range’ is a variable of distance, not of techniques. The technique to range calssifications are fundamentally flawed - category errors.
It would be like saying in medieval times: ‘How far to the next village?’ Reply: ‘Four bow shots’ Response: ‘What kind of bow… Long-Bow, Cross-Bow, Composite Bow etc etc…?’
Not at all accurate and in fact very misleading.
There are two ‘ranges’ when contextualised to combat:
Non-Contact and Contact.
Technique classifications are really ‘Dimensions Of Combat’ and, just as with physical space, they all exist ‘together’ to make up the rich environment that is real fighting.
Steven T. Richards,
I went to www.dictionary.com for this one . Range has many different definitions, including (but not limited to):
1 - The area or sphere in which an activity takes place.
2 - The full extent covered: within the range of possibilities.
3 - An amount or extent of variation: a wide price range.
4 - The maximum extent or distance limiting operation, action, or effectiveness, as of a projectile, aircraft, radio signal, or sound.
5 - The distance between a projectile weapon and its target.
6 - A stove with spaces for cooking a number of things at the same time.
In response to your medieval times situation, it would probably be more like asking, “What’s the range to the next village?” and expecting some unit of distance as the answer. For the most part I think you would want to know the range to a specific point if you intend to send something over there (like maybe an arrow or a missile)
I think the definitions I pasted here could show that there can be more to fighting range than “contact” and “non contact”. Range classification is my (personal) way of learning what my “high percentage” (ie. more likely to land) techniques are based on my distance to the opponent.
Besides, it also lets us big talkers feel important by letting us “know” martial arts instead of having to “do” martial arts .
You hit it on the head. It is your way of looking at it to help you train the way you train. It is your training doctrine that determines the meaning. You see a need to determine how your weapons land from based on your relative position to your opponent. If thats your schools approach, great. But it is not an absolute and as a theory does not apply to all schools.
Drake - I am adding ‘running like hell’ to my curriculum. I can’t beleive I forgot THAT one…
Tigerstyle, it is very nice of you to look the word “range” in the dictionary. In our discussion of fighting ranges, I think, definitions 1, 4 & 5 will apply.
If we take definition#1 - The area or sphere in which an activity takes place.
I would say that there is only one fighting range-- the contact range. An “activitiy” will only take place if there is contact. If there is no contact, of course there will still be a “fight” (shouting insults to your opponent?). But that’s not my idea of a fight.
If we take definition#4 - The maximum extent or distance limiting operation, action, or effectiveness, as of a projectile, aircraft, radio signal, or sound.
I would say that there are many ranges as there are techniques. Each technique is effective on a particular range(distance).
If we take definition#5 - The distance between a projectile weapon and its target.
We are talking of distance here. So I would say there are 3 ranges. Long, medium and short range.
Therefore, the number of fighting ranges depends on how you define it.
OK Cool, this is helping me. Here’s where I’m coming from. I have a set amount to train. For everything I train, there’s another I can’t. Therefore, I have a need to train intelligently for maximum efficiency. Since I like to throw and fight body to body, I need to determine what is going to give me the best bang for my buck.
Let’s say I can train either a kick or an elbow, but not both. Since I like extreme closeness, the elbow is going to the most beneficial thing for me. Once I have developed enough solid weapons from there, do I move into long range or ground? What is most likely to be effective for me?
I need to figure where I can best put my effort to get the best results.
Jump rope. Work up to 15 minutes a day (or more), make sure you do the important variations. Your feet take you there, they take you back. I found it made a huge difference in my footwork and the ability to close. I’ve been slacking since I moved in October, but I’m gonna get back on the program.
-FJ
lol, fa_jing. At first I thought you were posting in the wrong thread.
BTW, I’m clumsy and oafish when it comes to jumping rope, but can you tell (or show) me the “important variations”? I really need to do more work with that cursed piece of rope (that never seems to pass under my feet when I want it to. :mad: ).
Wingman,
Good response. I just wanted to show that it wasn’t neccessarily flawed to to think about the effectiveness of different techniques based on range(distance). I just went to Dictionary.com because I didn’t want to sound like a total moron when I replied. I guess we’re all supporting MonkeySlap’s theory.
Okay, bear with me, because this is going to be difficult to describe without a visual aid. First and foremost, stay smooth and light on your feet. Training to be light on your feet is the focus of the exercise, it’s not as beneficial to do 5 more minutes if you’re clunking it.
Time aspects: My Sifu started us out with 3 minutes. At first this was very difficult to complete, because I lost energy from lack of form, and I guess my calf muscles weren’t in this kind of shape. Then he worked us up to 3 X 3 minute rounds, with 1 min rest in between the rounds. Now this is no longer difficult for me. On my own, I worked up to 16 minutes straight, Sifu says he used to jump rope 15-30 minutes a day, eventually he decided to replace some of this time with different footwork drills.
Form aspects: keep the hands low, only move the wrists, not the arms, with arm held loosely. The wrist work is good exercise, and good for our Wing Chun circling wrists. Don’t jump high, the rope should just skim under your feet. The rope shouldn’t be too long either, it should just pass over your head by a few inches. If you find yourself missing alot, put both ends of the rope in one hand and swing it around, while you keep jumping. This is to get your rythym and get used to the jumping. Oh yeah, one more thing, very important - in most variations, you stay on your toes and never put weight into the heel, play with it and you’ll see.
Foot variations:
Principle variation, easiest: jump off alternate feet in place L-R-L-R etc. You jump off one foot, you land with your weight on the other, but the toe of your jumping foot also hits the ground right afterward
More difficult: jump off both feet in place.
Still more difficult: jump off both feet, but move feet back and forth so that one is at least one foot (30 cm) in front of the other each time you jump, and switching on each jump. This one will really help your footwork, but it took a few weeks before I could get the timing right. The rope goes under your feet as they are passing each other, once again keep your feet close to the ground. If you can extend the distance front-to-back between your feet, it becomes a good exercise for the thighs. In this variation, the lead foot is flat on the ground while the rear foot stays on the toes.
To get some blood flow to your hamstrings, try variation 1 except you try to kick yourself in the butt (almost) everytime you jump. You may put your foot flat on the ground for this one, too.
Same as above, except you kick forward slightly.
Once you get the flow and the technique down with one variation, you keep playing with it until you get the others. It takes a couple months to really get it.
I find it’s easier to get through it if I listen to some music while I jump. Also, for variation, trying jumping jacks. Do 200 or more. I think they’re nearly as good as jumping rope.
fa_jing,
Thank you very much! I appreciate you taking the time to type all of that out. However, could you explain number 2. “More difficult: jump off both feet in place”? I’m having a bit of trouble understanding that one.
Um, you want to look at that again?
Just jumping in place like you did in elementary school Gym class.
Landing on the same two feet. Try not to let you heels touch the ground. Maybe I confused you with the “more difficult” part, I meant more physically demanding, not a harder skill.
-FJ
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. Wouldn’t you agree that some attacks become more or less likely to land at different distances?
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