[QUOTE=doug maverick;1190382]xin yi is also correct.[/QUOTE]
No. It is not. It is an entirely different word which refers to an entirely different style of martial art.
xinyi:
xingyi:
[SIZE=“6”][/SIZE]vs. [SIZE=“6”][/SIZE]
Two entirely different martial arts. Historically related but quite distinct.
p.s.
They sound extremely similar and that’s why, in most cases, I wouldn’t bother with making such a point about the distinction but, in this case it’s the difference between a Panda that eat shoots and leaves and one that eats, shoots and leaves.
They do seem somewhat different…I started talking about the animal forms, which are pretty essential to Xinyi I think, and it seems that with Xing Yi you concentrate on 5 fists and the san ti stance. I don’t know enough about Xinyi, even Henan Xinyi Liuhe, to know if they use 5 fists at all, or whether they are encapsulated in animal forms.
[QUOTE=omarthefish;1190389]No. It is not. It is an entirely different word which refers to an entirely different style of martial art.
xinyi:
xingyi:
[SIZE=“6”][/SIZE]vs. [SIZE=“6”][/SIZE]
Two entirely different martial arts. Historically related but quite distinct.
===================================================
p.s.
They sound extremely similar and that’s why, in most cases, I wouldn’t bother with making such a point about the distinction but, in this case it’s the difference between a Panda that eat shoots and leaves and one that eats, shoots and leaves.[/QUOTE]
+1
I think the waters get muddied a lot because if you google Xin Yi you get lots of hits on “xinyi/xingyi” and the like. Can you elaborate more on Xin Yi, omar?
I really enjoyed it. I learned the five elements and the twelve animals, but the twevle didn’t really stick as I didn’t train them for as long or as well. Xingyi really came alive for me when I started doing An Shen Pao () the two-man drill form. Of course, I was doing that with Tony Chen, so it brought me up to speed pretty quickly. When he moved on, I couldn’t sustain it sadly.
otf is right. Xinyi and Xingyi are different. To make matters more confusing, I currently train [I]Changhu Xinyi Men /I which is a completely unrelated Songshan Shaolin form.
I think the waters get muddied a lot because if you google Xin Yi you get lots of hits on “xinyi/xingyi” and the like. Can you elaborate more on Xin Yi, omar?[/QUOTE]
Not really. Better to head over to rumsoakedfist.org and ask somebody who actually trains it. I have done a bit of Xingyi, really a tiny bit, and I have seen plenty of Xinyi. There’s a couple guys who show up at the demos I go to and I’ve even got a shixiong who used to train it but I can’t speak with any authority on the differences. I only know that “they” say that Xingyi evolved out of Xinyi. If I wasn’t familiar with the history, from just looking at them, I would never have guessed that they were related. The look extremely different to me.
I’ll assume you’ve all seen plenty of xingyi before. This is what xinyi looks like:
Feet:
The left foot points straight to the front.
Pointing diagonally or sideways is not good.
The right foot posture is diagonal
The front foot heel is in line with the rear foot ankle.
[/QUOTE]
This was something I’ve been thinking about. Though I’ve seen it as described above in nearly every video or picture, the way I’m being taught San Ti we have the back foot pointing straight and the front foot at around 45 degrees with the toes lined up. Has anyone seen this type of san ti in other lineages? I figured it might have been some sort of family specific difference at best.
There are many variations of xinyi. One can easily see the similarity between xinyiliuhe and dai xinyi. It’s also possible to see the similarity between dai xinyi and xingyi, however the similarity between xingyi and xinyiliuhe might be harder to see. Personally I think xingyi can be considered as part of xinyi however xinyi can not be called xingyi as it includes all of the sub-styles.
[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1190532]There are many variations of xinyi. One can easily see the similarity between xinyiliuhe and dai xinyi. It’s also possible to see the similarity between dai xinyi and xingyi, however the similarity between xingyi and xinyiliuhe might be harder to see. Personally I think xingyi can be considered as part of xinyi however xinyi can not be called xingyi as it includes all of the sub-styles.[/QUOTE]
Really interesting- I can’t say I’ve had a XinYi or XingYi teacher, but the said highest goal of what I practice is “XinYiBa” (to understand XinYi could be a translation).
Shi De Jian master tells in one of his Chinese books about his first times in Shaolin. He was showing the XingYi he learned to some masters who would become his teachers -and then they imitated and replicated it.
When De Jian Master asked “you [know how to] practice XingYi Too?” Shi De Chan master (Shaolin abbot after XingZhen) mentioned that XingYi came from Shaolin, and it was previously written in the records (before being destroyed). Just as Chen Style Taiji.
Externally the forms look similar between Shi De Jian master. The practice starts with Zhan Zhuang and very specific breathing/mental elaborations.
In this way, the XinYiBa may have represented the historical link to Shaolin between XinYi, or from where it was originally incubated.
Seperately:
Yi Quan founder Wang XiangZhai was also reported to believe XingYi essense is no longer understood or transmitted effectively, as it originally had no emphasis on outer form when compared to inner essence. He extensively taught Zhan Zhuang and Zhan Zhuang variations and named the style in honor of early styles utilizing “Yi” (intent) of XinYi/XingYi in honor of this
[QUOTE=Sima Rong;1189827]Great! I’m glad it works for you.
Just don’t impale yourself on a tree branch, like Zhang Gen in the legend. :D[/QUOTE]
I shall gladly follow this advice!
[QUOTE=brucereiter;1189841]i think of the “roads” or elements as 5 methods for delivering mass in 5 different directions.
once you understand the intended direction of the mass then hsing i can be more free.[/QUOTE]
Oh wow, I can vaguely understand what you mean but I’m sure it’ll come clear with more training. How would you view the animal forms in light of the the roads as being methods of delivering mass in 5 different directions?
1864 - 1936 814“”
Liu Weixiang (1864-1936), Hebei hejian Fu people. At the age of 8 from bajiquan Liu Xiaolan acquisition, at the age of 14 from a famous xingyi Quan Guo Yun deep practiced boxing, later famous Song Shirong, Bai Xiyuan two directions. After many years of hard study, the Panel was superb. Valor good governance, emphasis on practical martial art, people are “Liu Erbiao”. One of representatives of modern boxing art experiment. Horse Hall of martial arts teachers.[/QUOTE]
I learnt it from student of Chang Dong Sheng in Chicago over 20 years ago!
[QUOTE=brucereiter;1189841]i think of the “roads” or elements as 5 methods for delivering mass in 5 different directions.
once you understand the intended direction of the mass then hsing i can be more free.[/QUOTE]
original the five elements were five different, i guess theories on how one should issue power. it was li lou neng who solidified them into technique… xing yi is probably the only martial art, that and im talking about in the five element perspective..looks like boxing. and i feel over the years boxing has influenced the style.
[QUOTE=EternalSpring;1190576]I shall gladly follow this advice!
Oh wow, I can vaguely understand what you mean but I’m sure it’ll come clear with more training. How would you view the animal forms in light of the the roads as being methods of delivering mass in 5 different directions?[/QUOTE]
i have not put very much time into the animals (tiger and snake are the only ones i still practice) i prefer the 5 fists and the linking form for my personal hsing i practice.
it transfers mass in a different direction than any of the five fists.
the dragon goes more up and down etc. one of the things i look for in forms or martial arts movements is what makes it different what angle is it attacking or defending? what direction is my mass going?
[QUOTE=doug maverick;1190928]original the five elements were five different, i guess theories on how one should issue power. it was li lou neng who solidified them into technique… xing yi is probably the only martial art, that and im talking about in the five element perspective..looks like boxing. and i feel over the years boxing has influenced the style.[/QUOTE]
there are many similarities with hsing i and boxing.
So I’ve been cross training Xing Yi (and Bagua) now with the same friend for close to a year and I’ve definitely come to have more of an understanding of the answers to the questions i’ve asked in the past. At this point, I have a better understanding of the 5 elements and have been training what’s called an “Advance-Retreat Linking Form,” though I’m not sure if that’s the actual “linking form,” but when i compare it with forms I see online, there are many similarities and differences so i cant really make a conclusion on that matter.
In addition to this, I’ve also been occasionally training a movement called “squatting monkey” which has helped me understand a lot about the full body movement in the elements. I think the Xing Yi I’m learning can best be described as a combination of Shanxi Che Xing Yi, Dai Xin Yi, and Xin Yi Dao. Honestly, I’m not sure where exactly the “forms” i know are from out of this group of systems.
For anyone who reads this thread wondering about the same things I mentioned in the OP, here’s a list of what I’ve learned over time:
Like many mentioned, the 5 elements are more about different “roads” to use your energy (i actually didn’t really understand this when others mentioned it, but i do understand more now and I’m sure there’s a lot to go). I’m still a newbie, so the easiest way I could explain it in an example is that the way the body expresses it’s energy through something like Pao Chuan from start to finish covers different angles and directions than the other elements. In delivering mass, I realized this could refer to how one delivers his own mass/body as well as taking in, nullifying, and sending back another person’s mass.
At least as far as the advance-retreat linking form that I learned goes, it’s not simply different combinations of elements but rather the concepts of the elements expressed while moving back/forth/diagonally/etc. Also, it’s like the movements contain circles that are non stop from the beginning of the form to the end.
All in all, xing yi is a wonderful and effective art, and one that I’m very glad to be cross training in
Xing-Yi is a great internal art.
My main focuses at the moment however are Hua Quan Boixing (traditional Northern long-fist), & Tai Chi Quan routines.
My Tai Chi teacher offers cross-training in Xing Yi Quan, which I have trained for a couple years now. I also took several seminars for it @ a YMAA school, the original school in Jamaica Plains MA.
With all of the other training I do as a main focus, and even various other cross-training, my Xing-Yi has never really been at the fore-front of my focus, although I really like the style and try to get into it. The YMAA school stopped offering seminars for it (they changed location), and my Tai Chi teacher is always visiting China, focusing more and more on her Chinese Medicine clinic as she gets older, etc.
But- anyway- I think- Sant Ti Shi stance is very important. The stance is a real stinker to get the correct postural alignment- weight on the back leg, w/ a forward/ downward force at play w/ everything lined up, and one must be “sung”, relaxed (internal training.) sometimes my teacher combines this posture w/ the tai chi position “standing at a post” position- 5 minutes santi shi to one side, shift into post position in the middle, then santi shi to the other side. This seems to work well and mixes it up when training the static posture. then of course 10, 15 min. etc.
I believe the 5 element fists (Pi, Beng, Zuan, Pao, Hung) are foundational also. I was trained to perform them A) to both sides from a standing position (ma bu); B) up and down a line for many reps, and C) w/ a partner- for instance Pi blocks Beng, etc. these of course are just “shallow” interpretations of the application but it stresses proper execution of the technique and muscle memory. Also we worked on striking for Beng Quan (pushing the other person across the room w/ the striking energy).
Also cross-training in several styles you get those “ah-ha” moments. The same techniques are found in Hua Quan, Chen style Tai Chi and Xing Yi, they are just expressed differently, such as Pi Quan used for a joint-lock/ take-down, Hua and Chen styles have similar/ same application just with a stylistic difference expressed. If I didn’t cross train I would not be where I am at today (on an actual learning curve).
My Tai Chi teacher trained me in a Xing Yi small linking form and a long linking form. They are both good- the small linking form is very basic, pretty much just the 5 elements, not much more thrown in, linked together. The long linking form introduces a slew of new concepts, different postures/ technique, etc, it definitely has more flavor to it, it feels like a well-rounded out complete kung fu form.
Just thought I would share my experience w/ Xing Yi Quan on this thread.
