Hello, this is my first post, but I have been reading these forums for a while and I don’t think this has been covered, but please point me to the thread if it has.
I’m curious of the origins of wooden dummies in Kung Fu training. I believe that the wing chun style dummy is also used in Choy Li Fut and White Eyebrow. I think I’ve seen references to it in other styles too, but I’m not clear. Is anyone an expert on this topic?
I’m curious if it is southern tool/method exclusively or if it was just way more common across kung fu than I realized.
I’m also aware that there are other type of pole/dummy structures, like the 3 or 4 trunk dummies that I’ve seen in some southern mantis videos and in certain less well known branches of wing chun.
But, my interest in the history and pervasiveness of dummy training exceeds my knowledge about it and I thought I’d see what I could learn by asking the question.
Well, this is a huge topic. One can easily write an entire book on it. According to legend, the Wooden Dummy training as found in the Southern arts originated with the Southern Shaolin Temple. It is said that there were 108 designs of the wooden “men”. In a way, it more like rudimentary robotics designs. But then this is only a legend.
Another theory claims that the Wooden Men is actually the center pole found within the plum flower pole formation of 108 poles. However, there is a small scale plum flower pole formation that consists of only 11 poles. 9 tall poles are arranged in the 9 palace formation with 2 short poles planted in front of the center pole in the manner of the Wing Chun kicking poles design. This design of plum flower pole contains 3 different levels of training - Haven, Earth and Man. Man training is hitting of the center pole which has now evolved into Wooden dummy training. So in essence, plum flower pole and wooden dummy training are not mutually exclusive, which means they likely have the same origin.
training devices that imitate the height, weight and resitance of an opponent are a logical development for combat training in virtually all cultures.
Europeans had all sorts of interesting weapons dummies, wooden men, armoured sword dummies, swinging arm dummies that would hit you if you didn’t move etc etc.
One device in particular was the Pell.
About being “on the pell” (I will bold the salient points )
A pell offers a sturdy, resistant target that a fighter can use to hit with his weapon and slam his shield into. He can also place his shield against it while the sword passes forward to simultaneously execute a combination attack. Cuts, thrusts, slices, and hilt strikes can all be practiced with strength. The shield in particular can hit and smack out at the pell in a manner that would be unsafe in a live two-person drill. These actions along with shield blocking are the primary movements performed in training against a pell. As a stationary target, a pell has limitations after all and it obviously never hits back—but then, it never complains you’ve hit too hard either. Today, the pell is popular among many historical fencing students and Medieval combat reenactors where it’s once more being used to exercise and teach beginners targeting and strength in striking as well as attack combinations. Interestingly, even Medieval fighting enthusiasts entirely unfamiliar with the fact that pells were historically used have been known to construct their own stick fighting targets out of old tires, punching bags, and rolled up old carpet.
so, it is a device that aids in training use of strength and force against resistance and without bringing harm to a training partner.
The side effect with wooden men is that you will toughen up with the use of them over time.
[QUOTE=Hebrew Hammer;1075919]Anyone have some comparison pics of these ‘dummies’? And no I’m not asking for someone to post up my pic…
Dave do you have any pictures or links to some of the European ones? I’m a bit curious.[/QUOTE]
yep, here’s some pics:
Pell training (with a bust on top!)
an enthusiasts modern version
another enthusiasts modern version of a pell
13th-14th century
carried forward in time
15th century
It is worthy of note that the skills of a battle knight were abandoned in the west with the advent of better technologies. These types of training are for preservation of historical art forms and knowledge of ancient military.
Nowadays, a stack of tires is great for blade training.
Like Dave said, wooden training “dummies” are older than the hills on Granny’s chest and twice as dusty.
Pretty much every system of armed combat had them, I think would may have made the “kung fu” ones unique is that they were used for unarmed combat.
[QUOTE=mantis108;1075890]Well, this is a huge topic. One can easily write an entire book on it. According to legend, the Wooden Dummy training as found in the Southern arts originated with the Southern Shaolin Temple. It is said that there were 108 designs of the wooden “men”. In a way, it more like rudimentary robotics designs. But then this is only a legend.
Another theory claims that the Wooden Men is actually the center pole found within the plum flower pole formation of 108 poles. However, there is a small scale plum flower pole formation that consists of only 11 poles. 9 tall poles are arranged in the 9 palace formation with 2 short poles planted in front of the center pole in the manner of the Wing Chun kicking poles design. This design of plum flower pole contains 3 different levels of training - Haven, Earth and Man. Man training is hitting of the center pole which has now evolved into Wooden dummy training. So in essence, plum flower pole and wooden dummy training are not mutually exclusive, which means they likely have the same origin.
Hope this helps.
Mantis108[/QUOTE]
Probably one of the most relevant posts I’ve read on this forum about the origins of the mook jong, or as I know it mui faa jong.
Legend, folklore or not, it’s nice to see others who have heard of similar stories as myself for once!
Nice clips, but your man there looks like he will do himself some damage if he trains with a posture like that for too long :eek:
I found the Hung Kuen clip quite interesting, but again the guy will only get injured striking wood with such postures and attempted power generation imho.
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1077284] Bak Mei wooden Dummy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Mc1Kv1mGY (this guy is one of my original students)[/QUOTE]
That clip looks like it was done in his school. The floors and mirrors are the same.
I’ve seen this Sifu’s DVDs. What’s his name?
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1077940]it his studio…my old student trains with HIM now.[/QUOTE]
OK, thanks. That was a pretty impressive dummy form. One of my close friends http://www.grandfatherofrap.com/ did Bak Mei before he moved to Paris. I always liked the style.
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1077940]it his studio…my old student trains with HIM now.[/QUOTE]
OK, thanks. That was a pretty impressive dummy form. One of my close friends http://www.grandfatherofrap.com/ did Bak Mei before he moved to Paris. I always liked the style.
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