Wing Chun/Western Boxing

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
1

Greeting all.

I was wondering how many of you have cross-trained in Wing Chun and Western Boxing and what has your conclusion been? How do you feel they compare to each other? Structurely, tacticly, in power and speed generation, maybe even similarity in technique.

I understand Bruce Lee was heavily influenced by both.

I heard Emin Boztepe trains his guys to deal with western boxing. Anyone ever train under him?

Whether you feel they dont work together, or whether you think they were made for each other, gimme your theory.

This might just break down to whether you study a traditonal W/C style, or a modified one.

I think W/C can add finger jabs, faster punches, low kicks, and open hand strikes to a boxer’s aresnal..The footwork is what I feel are dramaticly different. The styles seem to be only related in a very basic sense to me.

Rooting when you punch in w/c, is there a relation between that and sitting down on your punches as in boxing?

As far as the front kick in w/c it reminds me of the push kick of muay thai? They might be down differently, but do they not serve a similiar purpose?

But maybe I am wrong? Enlighten me =) I have only rudimentary knowledge of Wing Chun, Jun Fan JKD, but have trained boxing more then anything. So bear with me here.

Any pro boxers known practioniers of w/c chun? It would not suprise me.

Thanks to all who participate.

2

It is possible to apply the WC principles to boxing, such as economy of motion, forward pressure/intent, structure, etc..

And it is possible to apply some WC technique and stance to boxing – look at the the stances of old style boxers and WC. Not the same, but similar, yet both developed independently of one another. Another example, old style boxing and WC utilize the same “falling-step” principle, ala Dempsey, to put power in to their punches.

Contrary to popular belief, boxing stresses speed and power through relaxation along with good biomechanics. This is the same in many MA’s.

Alot of this is discussed in a thread in the main forum, so take a look there, too.

Re the front kick, the thai push kick and WC front kick are related but not the same. The Thai push kick utilizes the ball of the foot and is usually used to merely push the opponent back to set up for a round kick or combo. The WC front kick is executed with the heel/sole of the foot and it’s intent is to kick and close the distance at the same time. Also, the WC kick does not chamber and retract after kicking like most MA kicks.

3

Fmann I will argue that point.
Perhaps you can use boxing techniques with wing chun, outside the extended parameter. But the two nucleus of both arts are so dissimilar I believe, you cannot combine them. (For close infighting.)
The nucleus of wing chun is the centerline.Boxing uses hooking strikes and fast jabs. That will not allow you to control the centerline.
Wing chun is a traping style. Since boxing does not control the centerline. I do not believe boxers would ever be able to trap.
Having stated that. Yes there are many techniques that could be used either which way. ( You mention Jack Dempsey’s drop step, for example.)
boxing techniques from outside the extended parameter could be used in wing chun.to get more random movement or looseness, But the bob and weve that is so widely used in boxing could never be used in traping.
So the answer your question, can boxing and wing chun be combined. My way of thinking says NO! YOU CAN EATHER BOX,OR TRAP,BUT NOT BOTH!
have good day.
C.A.G.

4

I disagree. The principles of boxing and WC are very similar, although the theory may not be.

I disagree with centerline theory being the nucleus of WC. Especially since every lineage seems to have a different spin on what the centerline theory is. Techniques not withstanding, simplicity, economy of motion, directness, efficiency, are all more important than centerline theory. If you throw a good, well-timed, well-placed punch, then does it matter if you adhere to centerline theory or not?

Contrary to popular belief, WC is not a trapping style – it’s a fighting style like any MA. I don’t even know where that misconception started. If you happen to have control of an opponent’s limbs, then you have control of an opponent’s limbs. What defines trapping? 'Cause I’m sure that every style has “trapping” in it, yet only WC is classified as such? WTF?

Try to “trap” a skilled boxer and you’ll probably just eat a good hook.

Much like you can apply WC principles to boxing, you can apply the work-ethic, toughness, focus on movement, etc. from boxing to WC. I’m not saying that the techniques will work interchangably, but the principles and training methods will for the most part.

5

Fmann
we have a huge difference in opinion. Sense I am not a classical wing chun man, I cannot argue for the classical wing chun centerline principal. But I can argue for what I was taught in Wing Chun Do. (Bruce Lee’s fighting style as interpreted by James DeMile.)
Traping is widely misunderstood. If your interpretation of traping is to check an opponent arms, then you are right, you will be in big trouble when going against a skilled opponent, (like a boxer) BUT if you see traping as an enmobilizing or grounding techniques that off-balance the opponent, so that they cannot strike you, while allowing you destroy them.:slight_smile: THEN WE ARE TALKING THE SAME IDEA OF TRAPPING!

Through the sense of touch and control of the spring energy, you can feel what the opponent is doing as soon as the opponent starts. Making it very simple to stop his movement before he actually begins moving.
Traping a boxer is not difficult. If you know how to do it. You must remember that traping in itself is not a endall,be all by itself. The centerline allows you to be able to touch the opponent with either hand, by using one hand offensively and the other one defensively at the same time ,will greatly reduced the opponent ability to counter your attacks. The third and most important element of traping is to control and take away space between yourself and the opponent, A constant forward pressure will easily, if applied correctly will overwhelm all but the very best fighters.
The hard part in traping is to engage. Before you can actually make contact is where you are in danger. After contact HAS been made it is not difficult to trap the opponent.
Now Im not talking just doing x-traps, but using an element traping in everything you do.
By shutting down the opponent’s angle of attack, as well as useing some basic movements, such as taun soa, pak sao, fook soa, or ,lop soa. When combined with the strike while you are closing, become extraordinary. (Even chung choy’s if done properly have some element of traping in them.)

Once you get into contact with the opponent, the trick is to feel and respond to what the opponent is doing. These basic principles are common in many martial art’s. Judo ,small circle jujitsu, and TAI CHI all have similar concepts. The trick is to apply them.
Here is a simple exercise to prove the point I am trying to make.

Stand in front of a training partner. Raise one hand (as if saying hello) have the secondary do the same, much like if you’re looking into a mirror (have him copy every movement you do.) Raise your hand up to above eye level and lower it to mid chest level. (You do not need to go fast ) you will find that there will always be a leg of time, between when you move and he responds.
Now touch your hand to the secondary hand. (Lightly) try moving, you will find it very easy to follow every movement not only up-and-down but from side aside as well.
Step 3 now touch (hard) you will find when you move he cannot stay with you. Because his energy will be over committed.

If you keep A light touch you can feel and move when the opponent moves .
Of course it is never that easy in real-life. But the theory is the same. And through practice and experimentation you will find traping to be very very effective.

But again that is just my opinion :slight_smile:
sincerely yours C.A.G.

6

i always thought the idea behind Wing Chun was to basically get to your opponents centre? Why trap, immobilize etc. when i can just hit you! My wing chun experience is only for 18 months, but we’re always taught not to ‘chase the arms’ and just go for the centre… Trapping doesn’t really happen, you can control your partner and move in to a more favourable position, but that’s just so you can hit… (?)

david

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WC and trapping

WC got the reputation of being a trapping system because they incorporate the techniques as a basis of their system. While it is true that you should not look to trap (as Dezhen correctly stated) you should however have the ability to execute a proper trap when the situation presents itself. The first priority is to hit. But also let’s be more detailed about trapping. It is both active and passive. A properly executed strike has trapping characteristics inherent within it. If your striking arm momentarily blocks a line of counter-strike from your opponent then it is like a passive trap.

WC follows the centerline principle because it allows for proper trapping (when necessary or available) and dual handed techniques that perform an offensive action and defensive action simultaneously. There are subtle movements that have the effect of limiting the opponent’s options; that is trapping also.

Boxing and WC can borrow certain techniques from each other, but ultimately, the foundation of each system is fundamentally different. Boxers usually swing their bodies from left to right to generate power and to be an elusive target, they’ll also bob and weave and usually stand in a modified side-stance. This allows them to put their jabbing arm closer to the opponent and yet keep their head at a safer distance. WC cannot incorporate those techniques and still be able to trap and apply constant pressure to the opponent’s central axis. You’ll have to figure which system you prefer to use as your base, and then add other techniques to enhance your fighting without sacrificing your style’s fundamentals.

That is just my opinion.

8

I agree with you David: WC is not a trapping system.

I agree that there are many aspects of boxing and WC that are different, but on a level of abstract principles, there are those that can be carried interchangably (sp?) between the two.

And gungfuguy, could you be more clear in your definition? You can’t use the word “trapping” when you are trying to define it! :smiley:

Seriously, “trapping” is a word that seems to be dropped by alot of JKD people, but very rarely dropped by well-taught WC/WT/VT people. If you mean trapping is controlling, then many styles have that, so why don’t people call them “trapping styles?”

In WC, we don’t trap people, we hit them. The opponent traps himself – we just take advantage of that.

9

definition

fman,

I thought I was clear when I said the following:

If your striking arm momentarily blocks a line of counter-strike from your opponent then it is like a passive trap.

This was my only attempt at a definition of trapping and I believe it stands on its own. Basically, when I strike you and the elbow of my striking arm prevents you from striking back on that side, that is a form of trapping. Of course, a defensive technique with the other hand at the same moment of the strike would make this truly effective and would greatly limit the opponents ability to respond. That is one definition of trapping.

I have a question for both fman and dezhen. How do you trap? It sounds like your not involving proper tactile responses. Do you affect the opponent’s base when you trap? There are many aspects to trapping and they all must be understood before trapping becomes effective. It sounds like you’re not using tactile responses. I am not trying to be critical, but trapping has to be learned through a lot of hands-on experience.

I would like to reiterate that I agree with dezhen on his point that trapping is less important than hitting. When given the option between hitting or trapping, you’d do better to hit! The problem is that many opponents won’t be that generous to you, and you may have to create your own openings via effective trapping.

10

I see your point now, gfguy. I just wanted to make sure that we were all on the same level – “trapping” is not chasing hands but controlling the opponent’s options whether it be by a good strike, good structure, good pressure, etc.. Ideally, it’s a combination of all.

As for tactile response, like I said: I don’t trap, the opponent traps himself – I just take advantage of it. If the opponent is too forceful, he moves me to a better position (e.g., I go around); if the opponent offers little resistance, then I go right in, etc.. .

11

Yes, I agree that chasing hands is dangerous and is not trapping.

I maintain that trapping can be very effective when properly executed and at the appropriate moment. You should strike, and if the opponent puts his arm in the way (as a counter-strike or block) then I would perform a lop sao or whatever other technique that would be appropriate, and that lop sao would momentarily disbalance the opponent, I would then strike again. Of course the strike and the lop sao would happen exactly as one movement and not 2 very quick movements. All that has limited my opponents ability to counter, has opened a target to strike, and has taken my opponent off-base (momentarily)…this is what I consider an effective trap. Of course, if my opponent wasn’t quick enough to get his arm in my way in the first place, I would have hit him without trapping. So in my understanding, an effective lop sao, pak sao, or even tun sao can be forms of trapping.

Fman, are you in WC? What is your style background? I am just curious. I am in Wing Chun Do, which is related to WC, but is a modern form. We see things differently, obviously. But the foundation is the same.

12

HUMM!!

TIMEING is everything. it looks as if I missed all the fun this afternoon.
Nicely said GungfuGuy,Your political gungfu is outstanding!!THE fight was over before I got home.:frowning: I’M sorry I missed all the fun! perhaps next time? SEE YA!
C.A.G.

13

i’m in the same position curtis. I guess that’s what happens when u live in the UK not the US :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t have that much experience in WC to be honest guys, so me trying to describe things i’m just starting to understand will be really tough :stuck_out_tongue:

There seems to be a lot of difference between what people define as trapping. I agree with what gungfu guy has said, but have never thought of that as ‘trapping’: more just superior positioning and redirecting my partners energy so i can hit.
But, i would just be following the path of least resistance so i can hit your centre. I wouldn’t be trying to purposely control your limbs or whatever. Just trying to be somewhere so i can hit!

I always thought of trapping as something like Wan Lan Sau, actually restricting and jamming your opponents movement so you can hit.

JKD, Kali and other derived arts seem to use the word ‘trapping’ a lot, but in my Wing Chun we’ve never really talked about it…

david