# Wing Chun, Bak Mei, SPM, Lung Ying, how different are they? **URL:** \ **Category:** Wing Chun\ **Created:** [July 14, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238 "2009-07-14T04:07:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AdrianK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AdrianK](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/AdrianK)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/1 "2009-07-14T04:07:11Z")
What do you think about the similarities between these styles? Do you feel the Wing Chun curriculum offers any concepts, any ideas, any training that is not found in SPM, Lung Ying, or Bak Mei? What do you feel is unique? What do you feel is similar? Obviously if you take a look at say, the average WC fighting stance, and the average SPM stance, there are significant differences outwardly… But does the look of the template in itself, make it unique? Many of the techniques I’ve found when training SPM, are very similar to WC, or vice versa. Are there any things that you’ve found are unique in these other styles, that aren’t found in WC? ---
**Author:** ![chusauli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@chusauli](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/chusauli)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/2 "2009-07-14T21:50:34Z")
Very briefly Josh: WCK is balanced, stands straight, equal with both left and right hands, controls inside and outside gates very well. 3 major sets and weaponry. Emphasizes sticking. SPM guard is more like a “V”, uses both hands evenly, strong Fou, Chum, Tun, Tou, uses a lot of specialty weapon hands like phoenix eye fist, taught somewhat secretly. 3 major sets, and weaponry. Emphasizes sticking. Lung Ying is more onesided, maybe even considered left handed…? Zig Zag tight in stepping, attacks to outside, also Fou Chum Tun Tou. Many empty hand sets and weapon sets. Emphasizes closing in. Bak Mei is like right handed Dragon form. 5 major forms, many minor forms, many weapon sets. Emphasizes closing in. I grew up in NYC and saw all of these systems a lot. Even met some top guys in the art. ---
**Author:** ![AdrianK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AdrianK](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/AdrianK)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/3 "2009-07-14T22:38:51Z")
Interesting. Thank you for the insight, Robert. I’ve heard at the later levels of SPM, there is chi sao. Do you know if Bak Mei or Lung Ying have any similar training methods to Chi Sao? ---
**Author:** ![chusauli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@chusauli](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/chusauli)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/4 "2009-07-14T22:44:50Z")
Bak Mei and Lung Ying do not, although at one point, they might have. They both have sets of “Mor Kiu”, which implies to touch/rub the bridges. Mantis has the Chi Sao and it is taught at all levels. They use other circles than we do. Their Gor Chuie and Geung Ji Chuie are indicative of these other circles that WCK does not use. ---
**Author:** ![TenTigers](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/tentigers/32/74_2.png) [@TenTigers](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/TenTigers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/5 "2009-07-14T23:06:54Z")
let me also add that SPM emphasizes the running hands. The hands do not return, rather they continue to strike, flowing in and around the opponent’s bridge-each strike creating the angle or direction of the folowing strike. ---
**Author:** ![chusauli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@chusauli](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/chusauli)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/6 "2009-07-14T23:58:55Z")
WCK does that. too. ---
**Author:** ![TenTigers](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/tentigers/32/74_2.png) [@TenTigers](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/TenTigers)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/7 "2009-07-15T00:53:52Z")
it would seem that Fukien Bak Hok, or some variation seems to be a common thread in these systems. Many versions look like WCK, SPM, BMP, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Sydney\_Mantis](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sydney_mantis/32/818_2.png) [@Sydney\_Mantis](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Sydney_Mantis)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/8 "2009-07-17T03:23:59Z")
IMO WC concentrate more on body structure to deliver hits and SPM concentrate on structure and chi kung. There is a lot more body conditioning in SPM than WC, thats why it takes a lot longer to master SPM. I’m not sure if WC incorporates body conditioning other than their hands and arms? ---
**Author:** ![TenTigers](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/tentigers/32/74_2.png) [@TenTigers](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/TenTigers)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/9 "2009-07-19T19:50:05Z")
[QUOTE=Sydney\_Mantis;947788]IMO WC concentrate more on body structure to deliver hits and SPM concentrate on structure and chi kung. [/QUOTE] I think that would be dependant on the specific style of SPM and WCK. I have seen SPM people who do not use hei-gung, and I have seen WCK people who do. ---
**Author:** ![Hendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/839c29/32.png) [@Hendrik](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Hendrik)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/10 "2009-07-19T21:15:48Z")
[QUOTE=TenTigers;948138]I think that would be dependant on the specific style of SPM and WCK. I have seen SPM people who do not use hei-gung, and I have seen WCK people who do.[/QUOTE] Qi Gong is a very very rare term used in China before early 1900. So, it is incorrect or even misleading to use Qigong/ Heigong as a point of reference. In the old time, Every competent art has its own type of body/mind/power conditioning which is called Nei Gong or internal practice. Thus, SPM or White Crane or WCK… all have their own type of Neigong. IMHO, SLT or the core of WCK using the Emei 12 Zhuang’s technology which is different then others. See, Stick or Chi as in Chi Sau has different methods. WCK way is similar to a retrograde Sickle or Boomerang. This is different then other art which is using other type of conditioning. A Sickling art has its way of body, mind, and applicaitons technics. Thus, even if in a static single photo short of WCK, SMP… looks the same it doesnt tell anything. Not to mention, there is a different between the folowing catagory of art. 1, body hard, arm hard, hand hard, (such as Hung Gar in general) 2, Body hard, arm hard, hand soft ( Such as White CRane in general) 3, EVery part is soft, contact point is hard/soft adapting (Such as IMA ) WCK belongs to the #3 catagory due to its characteristics. Thus, it is always call this is a “Female” art due to its soft. Thus, without a good understand of the art and comparing "Photograph " of individual shape to determine the similarity or different is misleading. Finally, so what is sickling/boomerang retrograde? the dramatized idea are illustrated in the following, movie clip. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLJ2ZIAoN6Q](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLJ2ZIAoN6Q) It is a continous of sickling/boomerang retrograde flow (different then START and STOP repeat art) which looks sticky. This type of art needs the every part is soft and contact point hard to implement. When the art was condition wrongly, when it takes the " start and stop repeating" hard body, hard arm,.. type of conditioning or Nei Gong, that becomes a different type of art. Have you ever ever ask the question why your WCK doesnt have the same “feel” as the WCK idealogy present in the WCK movie or other old WCK master? but more like a Shao Lin or Hung gar or even Karate disregard of you know all about needle within cotton…willow soft… ideas? and, Even when you playing with the Woodern Dummy, you cant get close and execute? chances are you use a hard body, hard army, conditioning. examine closely, and see if this is the case. if that is the case, then the root cause will be the mis practice of the SLT. That means the YJKYM stuck and hard… One needs to go beyond the shape or the move to know what the art is. and most of us doesnt have that level of understanding compare with those older generation masters in early 1900. thus we stuck. Just some thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![esox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6de8d8/32.png) [@esox](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/esox)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/11 "2009-07-21T21:50:38Z")
[QUOTE=chusauli;947304]Very briefly Josh: WCK is balanced, stands straight, equal with both left and right hands, controls inside and outside gates very well. 3 major sets and weaponry. Emphasizes sticking. SPM guard is more like a “V”, uses both hands evenly, strong Fou, Chum, Tun, Tou, uses a lot of specialty weapon hands like phoenix eye fist, taught somewhat secretly. 3 major sets, and weaponry. Emphasizes sticking. Lung Ying is more onesided, maybe even considered left handed…? Zig Zag tight in stepping, attacks to outside, also Fou Chum Tun Tou. Many empty hand sets and weapon sets. Emphasizes closing in. Bak Mei is like right handed Dragon form. 5 major forms, many minor forms, many weapon sets. Emphasizes closing in. I grew up in NYC and saw all of these systems a lot. Even met some top guys in the art.[/QUOTE] Please tell me you’ve never trained in these styles to be so mis-informed ---
**Author:** ![chusauli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@chusauli](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/chusauli)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/12 "2009-07-21T22:02:28Z")
[QUOTE=esox;948532]Please tell me you’ve never trained in these styles to be so mis-informed[/QUOTE] Please enlighten me. I would be happy to hear your insights and learn more. ---
**Author:** ![esox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6de8d8/32.png) [@esox](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/esox)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/13 "2009-07-22T19:40:20Z")
[QUOTE=chusauli;948533]Please enlighten me. I would be happy to hear your insights and learn more.[/QUOTE] without getting too much into a debate pak mei is no more right handed lung ying than it is right handed wing chun and it’s certainly not that, the stance is different the intent is different and whilst all three styles contain some of the same techniques, the way they are empolyed is certainly different. To say pak mei is like right handed lung ying is to say a cat is a pointy eared dog ---
**Author:** ![chusauli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@chusauli](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/chusauli)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/14 "2009-07-23T00:51:09Z")
Hi, Maybe if you guys seen it, you can determine for yourself: This is a typical Dragon Form set Ying Jow Nim Kiu, but also taught in Bak Mei: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvpSV3LKF9E&feature=PlayList&p=4A591D4D8BBB69D1&playnext=1&playnext\_from=PL&index=68](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvpSV3LKF9E&feature=PlayList&p=4A591D4D8BBB69D1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=68) This is Dragon Form: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAnoSIlewxY&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAnoSIlewxY&feature=related) This is Bak Mei Gou Bo Tui: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iGbETtoE4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iGbETtoE4) This is Ip Sui’s Chow Gar Southern Mantis: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k5e6kQtF6A](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k5e6kQtF6A) This is Jook Lum Mantis: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZHpJUC2B\_g&feature=PlayList&p=617E11FC26668AC3&playnext=1&playnext\_from=PL&index=2](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZHpJUC2B_g&feature=PlayList&p=617E11FC26668AC3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2) [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeoiClKTXU4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeoiClKTXU4) [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9DGa23DZdg&feature=PlayList&p=617E11FC26668AC3&playnext=1&playnext\_from=PL&index=23](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9DGa23DZdg&feature=PlayList&p=617E11FC26668AC3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=23) ---
**Author:** ![esox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6de8d8/32.png) [@esox](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/esox)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/15 "2009-07-23T15:13:47Z")
[QUOTE=chusauli;948786]Hi, Maybe if you guys seen it, you can determine for yourself: This is a typical Dragon Form set Ying Jow Nim Kiu, but also taught in Bak Mei: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvpSV3LKF9E&feature=PlayList&p=4A591D4D8BBB69D1&playnext=1&playnext\_from=PL&index=68](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvpSV3LKF9E&feature=PlayList&p=4A591D4D8BBB69D1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=68) This is Dragon Form: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAnoSIlewxY&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAnoSIlewxY&feature=related) This is Bak Mei Gou Bo Tui: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iGbETtoE4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iGbETtoE4) This is Ip Sui’s Chow Gar Southern Mantis: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k5e6kQtF6A](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k5e6kQtF6A) This is Jook Lum Mantis: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZHpJUC2B\_g&feature=PlayList&p=617E11FC26668AC3&playnext=1&playnext\_from=PL&index=2](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZHpJUC2B_g&feature=PlayList&p=617E11FC26668AC3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2) [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeoiClKTXU4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeoiClKTXU4) [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9DGa23DZdg&feature=PlayList&p=617E11FC26668AC3&playnext=1&playnext\_from=PL&index=23[/QUOTE]](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9DGa23DZdg&feature=PlayList&p=617E11FC26668AC3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=23%5B/QUOTE%5D) My most sincere apologies. I was talking from the perspective of one having been well taught in both lung ying and pak mei but I bow down to the greater knowledge that can be gleaned from youtube. ---
**Author:** ![chusauli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@chusauli](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/chusauli)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/16 "2009-07-23T16:23:25Z")
esox, I have no issues with you. I don’t even disagree with you…I have no idea who you are, what you have trained in, for how long, etc. The youtube is convenient, it lets others who never saw the art to at least see what it is. On a public forum, its all discussion, you can disagree without being disagreeable. I think Bak Mei and Lung Ying are very similar - they are taught often together, and Cheung Lei Chuen studied both arts. I think Lung Ying is softer and curved and Bak Mei is more linear. In retrospect, I think my Lung Ying using more left hand was off. I remember a Si Hing of mine telling me that…but it may be my faulty memory. When I learned some Bak Mei, Sam Tung Gor Kiu, Ying Jow Nim Kiu, and Lung Ying Mor Kiu were part of the curriculum, albeit with Bak Mei signatures. Chu Ga Gao, Chow Ga, and Jook Lum all have strong similarities. All Hakka systems use similar mechanics of Tun, Tou, Fou, Chum - WCK even has it. I would really like to know more about your insights. ---
**Author:** ![esox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6de8d8/32.png) [@esox](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/esox)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/17 "2009-07-23T20:22:23Z")
I mean only to say that you could never appreciate the essence of a style you hadn’t practised by watching someone perform it. I’m sure the same is true of your own style. Youtube has some decent practitioners and loads of absolutely awful ones. Yes lung ying is often taught as a precursor to pak mei as it is considered by some to aid the learning process and i would concede that for someone who didn’t get too far there would appear some similarities, however when the path is trodden further the styles are so very different. lung ying has a different stance and attacks like a truck demolishing everything in it’s path with relentless attack. Lung ying knows no retreat. Pak mei is far more subtle in it’s learning requiring much time to learn the source of it’s power and speed but once learnt attacks with the ferocity of the tiger ripping and tearing the skin with fu jow technique.rapid attack coming from every angle. It goes from nothing to madness in a split second. Pak mei employs fu naan choy, phoenix eye fist, lung ying doesn’t. you will appreciate it’s so difficult to put into words. Before i’m done i’m not a subscriber to the Hakka thing, these people are said to have learnt a very early version of the style which clc then perfected over many years they may have learnt the style but it’s not there style I believe. Maybe due to our different nationalities you missed the degree of humour in my previous posts, disagreeable they were not intended to be ---
**Author:** ![esox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6de8d8/32.png) [@esox](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/esox)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/18 "2009-07-23T21:17:49Z")
I would like to add that for anyone interested in a much better explanation of pak mei, as previously discussed in another thread , I recommend Robert Yandle@s book Pak Mei A Dedication ---
**Author:** ![Hendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/839c29/32.png) [@Hendrik](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Hendrik)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/19 "2009-07-23T21:51:10Z")
[QUOTE=esox;948926]rapid attack coming from every angle. It goes from nothing to madness in a split second. [/QUOTE] Could you kindly share how is this done, particulaly how the power is generated? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![esox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6de8d8/32.png) [@esox](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/esox)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238/20 "2009-07-23T23:01:17Z")
[QUOTE=Hendrik;948950]Could you kindly share how is this done, particulaly how the power is generated? Thanks.[/QUOTE] find a good teacher as I did, it certainly is not something that can be learned from a book or a video. Recently when I read Yandle’s description of this I realised more than ever that I would never have understood it had someone tried to explain, you have to develop it yourself through copying your teacher, being corrected constantly and hours of practise and I suppose were it any different it would not be worth knowing, [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/wing-chun-bak-mei-spm-lung-ying-how-different-are-they/46238.md?page=2)