# Why are forms not 'Alive'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Kung Fu Forum\ **Created:** [February 4, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121 "2003-02-04T16:30:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ShaolinTiger00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@ShaolinTiger00](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ShaolinTiger00)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/81 "2003-02-05T15:15:37Z")
or was it a built in disclaimer for when you inevitably loose this debate? - It’s hard to lose when you have the overwhelming evidence to prove otherwise. Was I trolling? Yep. While all my opinions are what I firmly believe,I could have kept them to myself, but.. “I don’t think ST00 is outright trolling so much as trying to get a discussion going. He is usually pretty reasonable and pretty knowledgeable and while he shows some angst when it comes to TMA or CMA, I think he is just lookig to discuss with some of those TMA/CMA people. It just so happens that it probably gives hima few chuckles as well.” Immense chuckles. As I said before, If you’re going to spend the majority of your time practicing forms and consider yourselves skilled in martial combat, then you should be able to justify it, because there is a mountain of evidence that proves otherwise. Can anyone provide me with an example of a kungfu man/woman whom has been successfull in competitions, using no training other than forms? ---
**Author:** ![Losttrak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2bfe46/32.png) [@Losttrak](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Losttrak)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 3:28pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/82 "2003-02-05T15:28:33Z")
I am a die-hard kung fu practicioner and if anyone says they can kick a$$ JUST from doing forms… I will be the first to disagree. Who has said such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![yenhoi](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/yenhoi/32/185_2.png) [@yenhoi](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/yenhoi)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/83 "2003-02-05T15:29:02Z")
using no training other than forms? tricsksy hobbit… I dont think aliveness is the most important measurement for all training methods. Forms fall into the same catagory as weight lifting, stretching, jumping rope, etc. Another cool thread to link to this one is Ap’s thread on designing a training program to get someone sparring. Some people had their trainee sparring by the end of day one (withen 2 hours for me…) while others would wait upto 6 months. “…you’re going to spend the majority of your time practicing forms and consider yourselves skilled in martial combat…” Holds true for any training method besides fighting. Forms are relatively low on my list of training methods on the economy scale and wouldent make my cut for a competition fighter. Good fun ST00! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![yenhoi](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/yenhoi/32/185_2.png) [@yenhoi](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/yenhoi)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/84 "2003-02-05T15:43:30Z")
I must also say I am a big fan of Mr Matt. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Jamieson](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/david_jamieson/32/19_2.png) [@David\_Jamieson](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/David_Jamieson)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/85 "2003-02-05T16:02:03Z")
> It’s hard to lose when you have the overwhelming evidence to prove otherwise. and this overwhelming evidence is? c’mon, form is a legitimate method of training someone. They are hardly defunct. I think that if you look to virtually every pro in the fighting sports and you will find exctly the opposite. form is form, long or short. whether it is a combination drilled again and again or a long series of techniques trained over a longer period of time, everyone uses it as a method to develop as a fighter. you can’t just press weight, spar and skip rope. THere are many factors related to form in all fighting methods. cheers ---
**Author:** ![red5angel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/red5angel/32/219_2.png) [@red5angel](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/red5angel)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/86 "2003-02-05T16:09:20Z")
ST00 - I am with kung lek here, where is the overwhelming evidence? In my own experience, in the street the few fights I have seen that involved a martial artist were all with oddly enough TKD people, who also did plenty of forms work along with sparring and other training techniques. ---
**Author:** ![dnc101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ba0ec/32.png) [@dnc101](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/dnc101)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/87 "2003-02-05T16:11:55Z")
> Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00 > It’s hard to lose when you have the overwhelming evidence to prove otherwise. You forgot to put a big grin after that statement- that’s the only way we’d take that seriously! 🆒 OK, you started out dumping on forms in general, now you’re down to those that spend the majority of their time training forms. That’s a step in the right direction. Everyone who does forms doesn’t major in them. With Kenpo, I probably spend less than a quarter of my training time on forms. And that includes the practical and application work I do on them. Tai Chi Chuan is a different animal. At my level right now I spend most of my time on just trying to learn the 24. By learn it I don’t mean just going through the motions. There is an incredible ammount of detail in the moves, and it will take me a long time to get to the point where I can do them reasonably well without thinking too much. It will be much longer yet before I get to the point I can use any TCC in a fight. But that’s fine, I enjoy doing it. I also do a little grappling and weapons on the side. I have no forms work in grappling, and I’m not very good at it. So if any one knows any good forms that would improve my skills … (?). Weapons- I doubt that even you would question the validity of forms in training traditional martial arts weapons. Firearms training has no forms, and I am very good with a pistol, extremely good with a rifle, deadly with a shotgun. I also work disarms, which have no forms. So, my training runs the gammut from heavily forms oriented to no forms. My opinion is that forms are not the only method of training. But they have a definate place and purposes. To discard forms training, or to do it wrong, is to cheat yourself out of an important learning experience. And to try to convince those of us who do forms that there is no bennifit is a bigger waste of time than trolling. I wouldn’t say that sport fighting isn’t a good testing and training ground for street fighting tactics. But I could argue that if you aren’t destroying joints pr gouging eyes you aren’t really in a no holds barred street fight situation. Would that change your opinion on the validity of fighting as training for actual self defense? I doubt it. Like the idea that forms have no value, it’s pure foolishness. ---
**Author:** ![MightyB](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/mightyb/32/227_2.png) [@MightyB](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/MightyB)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/88 "2003-02-05T16:15:17Z")
Forms are a great training device for that uncoordinated nerd newbie. They help us to uncover and revitalize some deepseated athleticism that’s been nearly killed from years of inactivity accompanied by small bouts of masturbation that occur when they have fantacies of being like Jet Li. We’ve all had that student and no matter how many times they hit the pads, they still punch like girls. Forms are about the only way to induce some small amount of coordination to their geekified style of living. ---
**Author:** ![yenhoi](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/yenhoi/32/185_2.png) [@yenhoi](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/yenhoi)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/89 "2003-02-05T16:26:57Z")
dnc: what kind of grappling? Bjj guys have several solo drills (NOT FORMS 😃 ) that you would benefit from. Agree with MB: if you give a form to a complete new guy, the weakling couch potato, the 'lil guy’s body will change so much he will think he is Bruce Lee in no-time. But that goes for nearly any form of regular exercise. Also forms are a management tool for large groups of people (such as a platoon+ of soldiers.) Or as a simple test of a students technical progress. In modern american times there are better methods for these things. Also much changes as far as how you measure training methods when it comes to training a competitive fighter, self defense, or just training, not to mention all the happy hippies out there. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![red5angel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/red5angel/32/219_2.png) [@red5angel](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/red5angel)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/90 "2003-02-05T16:31:52Z")
“Forms are a great training device for that uncoordinated nerd newbie” LOL! ---
**Author:** ![dnc101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ba0ec/32.png) [@dnc101](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/dnc101)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/91 "2003-02-05T16:47:52Z")
yenhoi, I don’t study a particular style. I work out from time to time with grapplers, ex grapplers, and wrestlers (I know, but this is a small town so you take what you can get). The closest class that does grappling is in a neighboring town. It is a TKD class that does their own mix of grappling and small circle Aiki as an adjunct to their training. Their walk in fees are reasonable, so I go there whenever I feel the need to get my butt humbled. It’s funy- this is a BIG wrestling area. But the only martial arts classes are TKD and Arnis. A Shoto Kan (sp?) school just opened up a block over from the TKD class I visit. But they are a sort of closed group. Won’t have much to do with anyone who doesn’t belong to their school, so I don’t know what they do. ---
**Author:** ![ShaolinTiger00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@ShaolinTiger00](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ShaolinTiger00)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/92 "2003-02-05T16:55:52Z")
Why aren’t you wrestling? some of the best cross training skills that you’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![dnc101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ba0ec/32.png) [@dnc101](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/dnc101)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/93 "2003-02-05T17:07:23Z")
Way too dang old to wrestle.:mad: But you’re right, they’ll push you (or me, any way). I’m not sure a sit out would be usefull in a fight, but if you move the grapevine from a leg hold to an arm lock it is a painful experience. As an added bonus, the victim gets to smell your feet.:eek: ---
**Author:** ![ShaolinTiger00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@ShaolinTiger00](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ShaolinTiger00)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/94 "2003-02-05T17:11:33Z")
too old? You would be suprised. My high school coach still has a “walk-in” policy and many adult men from the area came to wrestle and my college had the same policy and lots of guys came in. provided they were in decent shape and could show that they knew enough not to get hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Oso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/oso/32/63_2.png) [@Oso](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Oso)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/95 "2003-02-05T17:11:48Z")
I must also say I am a big fan of Mr Matt now, see, I’d like to maybe take that as a compliment… but it’s probably not keep hammering him guys, maybe ST00 will enlighten us some more. ---
**Author:** ![dnc101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ba0ec/32.png) [@dnc101](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/dnc101)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/96 "2003-02-05T17:57:39Z")
> Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00 > too old? You would be suprised. My high school coach still has a “walk-in” policy … It would surprise me. The high school sports here are pretty closed. They’ll take volunteer help, if you qualify. I’ve helped with some of their programs (not wrestling). But working out is another thing. It is possible to sign up to use their facilities. But the gymn with the matts is almost allways booked. And even when it’s not, it’s guaranteed you’ll get preempted. I’m in the process right now of cleaning out my garage and setting it up to work out in. I’m thinking about finding some old carpet and thick carpet pads and making my own matt. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![ShaolinTiger00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@ShaolinTiger00](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ShaolinTiger00)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/97 "2003-02-05T18:00:16Z")
good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Oso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/oso/32/63_2.png) [@Oso](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Oso)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/98 "2003-02-05T18:15:03Z")
dnc101 If you live in a big wrestling area chances are you can find an old mat or part of an old mat that some coach would give you or sell cheaply. A buddy of mine that I trained with was an asst coach at the local HS and I would go in occasionally to give their Hvy weight someone bigger to play with. It was a lot of fun. ---
**Author:** ![ShaolinTiger00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@ShaolinTiger00](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ShaolinTiger00)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/99 "2003-02-05T18:25:48Z")
[resilite.com](http://www.resilite.com/) great site for getting a reconditioned mat for home use. ---
**Author:** ![dnc101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ba0ec/32.png) [@dnc101](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/dnc101)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121/100 "2003-02-05T18:49:53Z")
Thanks for the info guys. I bookmarked the Resilite site, but they are still a bit out of my price range. For now I’ll have to make do. Any one have a recipe for Dit Da Jow for carpet burns? [Previous page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/why-are-forms-not-alive/18121.md?page=6)