who's the best wing chun guy

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

“Just wondering who is the best wing chun guy in William Chungs camp, and who is most senior???” (Green Cloud)

***NOT NECESSARILY one and the same thing, Green Cloud. But I think you probably already know that. Senority is tricky business - and not always reflective of what’s really what.

For example…Phil Redmond is technically my “senior” because he joined in June, 1983…and I joined two months later in August, 1983. But I got my Gold Sash before Phil did (I received it in October, 1990…so who was I compared to Phil at that moment - his senior?)

See my point?

…Took my first test toward the Master Level in 1993 - one of the first people in the asociation at that time to do that …learned quite a bit beyond that Provisional Master Level 2 and the final level but never took another test until ten years later (2003) …and haven’t taken another test since even though I know most of the material to full Master Level by now.

…Meanwhile Phil has gotten his full Master Level about a year or so ago.

So what does it all mean? Confused yet? Well then try this on for size:

During the mid 1990’s Keith Mazza spent some time time learning the wooden dummy with Sonny Whitmore so as to prepare for his Gold Sash test…and then he got to full Master Level ahead of both Phil and me.

See where I’m going?

(Btw…Keith Mazza stands 5’ 11" and weighs 235…and he did fight in one or two low level MMA events back in the late 1990’s - but I don’t remember which ones).

So trying to figure who is most senior in William Cheung’s camp can be very tricky indeed - especially if you start counting people who joined William before you did (and they achieved some fairly high rank) but eventually left the association.

But trying to figure out who’s the best might be a little easier - though still somewhat subjective. And by best I mean best fighter.

So here’s a partial list alphabetically of who I think the best fighters are who ever trained with William Cheung - regardless of whether or not they are still with him. (I say partial because I’ve never met any of the European guys and very few of the Australians) - but I will mention some of those I’ve never met based upon what William Cheung himself has told me through the years about this guy or that guy, etc…and of course the list will include many people based upon what I’ve seen/experienced/heard through the years about them.

And I won’t even get into weight categories…for clearly some of the heavyweights who learned a lot from William Cheung would have a built-in advantage when we try to rate them against others of a lighter weight who learned basically the same amount of material.

Anthony Arnett
Jerry Boulding
Johnny Clayton
Blaine Collins
Delroi Flood
Keith Mazza
Joe Moahengi
Shannon Moore
Bill O’Connell
Eric Oram
Victor Parlati
Jesse Quinnones
Phil Redmond
Julian Richardson
Joe Sayah
Rick Spain
Gary Young

Again…the list is very partial - and doesn’t include some students of the above mentioned people who are definitely good fighters. (I myself have 5 students who could fit that bill - three of them heavyweights)…and guys like Johhny Clayton and Anthony Arnett - just to name two - each have a whole bunch of students who are good fighters.

42

Sifu victor P. I noticed that Chris serras wasn’t on that list where does this guy fit in. I ask because I have had dealings with this guy in the past and I am trying to figure out what’s what if you know what I mean. Please give me a pm if you don’t feel like discussing it on the forum or call me joy gin Gus K.

greencloud.net

43

I know the question was posed to Victor but Chris Serras is a member in good standing of out association and runs a school in Long Island.
Phil

44

I know the question was posed to Victor but Chris Serras is a member in good standing of our association and runs a school in Long Island.
Phil

45

I wholeheartedly believe that. Many “competitive” martial artists may seem invincible but in the no rules streets even the average guy can get over on a pro fighter. There are people out there who don’t compete and don’t have titles that can be dangerous.
Phil

46

Here’s an old photo of the first group of TWC guys from 1984-5? I don’t remember, Victor probably knows the exact year. Blaine Collins (seated), was the Dai Sihing at the time. Yes, that is Pedro Cepero-Yee behind Blaine Collins.
First NYC TWC group
Phil

47

That photo was taken in November, 1984…and I’m the good looking guy that Phil Redmond rushed to stand directly in front of so that he could be shown standing next to Blaine… :smiley: (You only see my face, partial chest, and left arm in the photo…Da_n that Redmond guy!)

Not to worry: we all know who was teaching most of the good stuff in the classes in those days. :cool:

(When Blaine came to town he stayed with me! :slight_smile: )

Ha! Ha! (Finally gotcha, Phil…:rolleyes: )

48

Another TWC practitioner under Cheung, his name is Joe (can’t spell his last name), won the heavyweight division for that same year also.

Joe Moahengi. Now spends most of his time in Tonga.

Important note: a lot has changed in the world of competitive martial arts since 1982. What cut it then could get you killed today.

Wow. Really?

The 1982 tournament basically had very thin gloves like bag mitts, no protection for either party. Basically only shots to the eyes, throat and groin were disallowed, there were lots of elbows to the kidneys, back of the neck, etc. A Xingyi training bud of mine at the time competed and nearly lost an eye, as did a couple of other competitors. Quite a few people ended up going to hospital.

Reportedly the tournament was not held again as the number and severity of injuries meant no one was prepared to sponsor it again.

And yes, Rick did win his final fight with a broken hand.

Not a modern pro MMA event perhaps, but in many ways just as if not more dangerous.

Rick Spain also had over 100 amateur and 37 pro kickboxing matches. And he’s moved with the times, now a purple belt in BJJ, with students who have succeeded in local MMA and state and national BJJ competition.

Still cutting it today, wouldn’t you agree?

49

Great old school pic! Time goes so fast it’s scary.

50

Where did Carlan Stewart and Bob Shores fit into this? Carlan was good friends with Blaine and Bob. Bob held seminar’s for Sifu Cheung. This was all back in the early 80’s. Carlan was also Pres or vice-pres of the WWCKFA.

51

Funny how none of you “seniors” have much to say about Sifu Dana Wong, who taught for GM for over 10 years at the World Headquarters. He did instructor training in Australia with GM on Friday nights, the only day off he had from teaching the classes there, and he had a daily private with GM from 1988 to 1990 as well. He told me he doesn’t read the Wing Chun forums because there’s a lot of ego there, and stuff that gets said that isn’t always true or accurate. I’m not saying that what some have said here on this thread isn’t accurate, just that some of it may not be said with all the facts being presented. Seems to me some egos may be wanting to get massaged here, at the expense of holes that would make it convenient for people to do so. The internet’s a funny place; it can be a great place for information and exchange, like on this forum and others but it can be a place that also allows for a lot of misinformation and misrepresentations too. Although Sifu Wong doesn’t visit these forums, and doesn’t say much about his own skills and abilities, anyone who’s met and trained with him would know that he has more than what some claim. Just thought I’d put that in, seeing how he doesn’t spend time reading these things. I trained with him for about five years in Australia, and think that he’s not getting some of the credit he deserves for all the time he put into the WWCKFA. If any of you knew him personally, you know he wouldn’t have left it if it wasn’t for a good and ethical reason. And just because he calls his school the Qian Li Dao academy now doesn’t mean he doesn’t still teach TWC.

52

Just thought I’d put that in, seeing how he doesn’t spend time reading these things. I trained with him for about five years in Australia, and think that he’s not getting some of the credit he deserves for all the time he put into the WWCKFA.

No one mentioned Dana, but no one dissed him either. As you say, he’s a quiet achiever who did a lot for the WWCKFA in Australia (same as people like Marty Goldberg, among others, did in the US).

If any of you knew him personally, you know he wouldn’t have left it if it wasn’t for a good and ethical reason. And just because he calls his school the Qian Li Dao academy now doesn’t mean he doesn’t still teach TWC.

Quite a few other people have parted company with GM Cheung and the WWCKFA. I know three instructors personally in that boat with Dana, including Rick Spain, who was with GM Cheung for 22 years, and I know EXACTLY what happened in Rick’s situation, as I was physically present at the time when the split occurred. No sane person would have continued the association in that situation.

I don’t think I’m treading on anyone’s toes here when I say GM Cheung’s unlikely to win any awards for employee relations anytime soon. A great WC man and martial artist, but not the easiest guy to work for.

Rick also teaches TWC, though after rebranding it Hung Suen Wing Chun.

Rick Spain and his most senior student Alf del-Brocco, kept in contact with Dana after the split and AFAIK are still on good terms.

53

Met Carlan Steward when I tested for my Gold Sash in October, 1990 in Denver, Colorado…Carlan was already a Gold Sash instructor - but dropped out of the association the following year over a dispute with William Cheung concerning some financial matters regarding a new school that Carlan was opening…and if I’m not mistaken - the school was in San Diego at the time. Was actually considering mentioning him when I made the list - but don’t really know enough about him and and don’t remember seeing him do very much that weekend - and in fact I sparred with one of his students during my test (this guy was also testing for the Gold Sash)…but I wasn’t very impressed with this guy at all.

Don’t really know how good Carlan really is or was - perhaps I should have included him…(I know Blaine Collins had some good things to say about him).

Seemed like a good guy.

I don’t think Bob Shores was ever an instructor…wasn’t he a chiropractor? I believe I met him that weekend also.

54

Met Carlan Steward when I tested for my Gold Sash in October, 1990 in Denver, Colorado…Carlan was already a Gold Sash instructor - but dropped out of the association the following year over a dispute with William Cheung concerning some financial matters regarding a new school that Carlan was opening - and if I’m not mistaken - the school was in San Diego at the time. Was actually considering mentioning him when I made the list - but don’t rally know enough about him and and don’t remember seeing him do very much that weekend - and in fact I sparred with one of his students during my test (this guy was also testing for the Gold Sash)…but I wasn’t very impressed with this guy at all.

Don’t really know how good Carlan really is or was - perhaps I should have included him…(I know Blaine Collins had some good things to say about him).

Seemed like a good guy.

55

who is the best wing chun guy

re dana wong, sifu dana ran chinatown club for over ten years , dana has some of the best knowledge, in twc, he welcomed me warlmy when he knew i was a
senor at my other school dana is a good guy and very openmined in regard to wing chun we remain tight friends peace russellsherry

56

I met Dana when I first met Willliam Cheung in August, 1983 in Boston…don’t think he had ever done any wing chun before at that time - but it was him who arranged for William Cheung to come and do a weekend seminar at a college. In fact, I played a game of chess with William Cheung in Dana’s apartment after the Saturday seminar.

Spoke to him a few times through the years after he went to live in Australia…I omitted him from the list not because he had a falling out with William Cheung and left the association - there are a number of people on that list who left William Cheung…I omitted his name because I know enough about him to come to the conclusion that he was not a particularly skilled fighter…that’s not who he really was. He knew the system very well - but was not really a fighter.

Very nice guy, though…just about everybody I know liked him. And I wish him well.

No offense intended. Dana was always very friendly toward me.

…

And I can second what Anerlich (Andrew Nerlich) has said about Rick Spain. From what I’ve heard through the years - he is probably one of the very best of all of William Cheung’s students. Had a chance to meet him when he came to the U.S. to do a seminar back in 1997 (1998?)…he had already left the association…there was a lot of politics going on, and crazy Joe Grepo :smiley: - who was organizing the seminar here in the U.S. after he also left the association - wanted me to go…but I didn’t.

I was waaaaaay too involved with William Cheung and Association matters at that time to even consider it.

…

You know…the more I think about this…the more I’m coming to the conclusion that I may have left too many names off the list…:eek: :rolleyes: :wink:

57

Shammy

I mentioned Dana at least twice in my posts on this thread. I’ve met Dana and have exchanged friendly emails with him since he left the association. I also was invited to go to Melbourne and teach along with Dana. It would have been fun for both of us. I remember talking to him when he first got there and him telling me how hard he was working. There was no malice against Dana intended. He’s a really nice guy.
Phil

58

Thanks for the reply Sifu Parlati. Sifu Steward was my instructor from 96-99 back in CA. He told me about Sifu Collins being one of Sifu Cheung’s early students here in the US back in the early 80’s and how he and Sifu Collin’s attended alot of Sifu Cheung’s seminar’s in the US. When I moved to UT I talked to Sifu Shores on the phone and got some video’s of the early seminar’s 83 up in Oregon at Sifu Shores school. I remember talking to Joe Greco on the phone back when I was training with Sifu Steward. The guy had alot of stories to tell, that’ for sure, LOL

59

I’m really curious to know what happened - any chance of you telling what happened from your viewpoint? (or is it a personal story best reserved to be heard from the horses mouth.. ie Sifu RS?)

cheers,

60

Too funny

Yeah, you lived in a “safer” part of Brooklyn than I did. . . LOL
Phil