# who's the best wing chun guy **URL:** \ **Category:** Wing Chun\ **Created:** [February 8, 2006, 5:07am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105 "2006-02-08T05:07:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr\_Punch](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/mr_punch/32/273_2.png) [@Mr\_Punch](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Mr_Punch)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 4:14am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/21 "2006-02-09T04:14:52Z")
> [@LeeCasebolt](#): > > Just curious - which events? [Sherdog.com](http://Sherdog.com) has no listing for a “Keith Mazza”, and they’re fairly complete. Don’t think it is mate. I checked someone they referenced on their news page as having 14-0-0 the other day and he had one fight listed in their fighter’s list. Can’t remember his name. And I’ve seen Ryan Bow, my shooto teacher, fighting in tournaments with big promoters and big names, and not demo matches either, which aren’t listed on his Sherdog record. And I’m not there, and I’ve won at least 280 rooftop beimo using just my Iron Head techniques, against some of the finest fighters in world. BTW, LOL at Watchman. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cloud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Green\_Cloud](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Green_Cloud)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 4:23am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/22 "2006-02-09T04:23:16Z")
LOL you are so clever;) ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cloud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Green\_Cloud](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Green_Cloud)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 4:27am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/23 "2006-02-09T04:27:12Z")
Mat I have asked about this before what is a shooto teacher?? I thought the Japanese term for shooto means chop. I’m sure youre it means something else I just wanted to know what you are refering to:confused: ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Punch](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/mr_punch/32/273_2.png) [@Mr\_Punch](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Mr_Punch)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 8:38am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/24 "2006-02-09T08:38:36Z")
Sorry, I hadn’t noticed. The shuto which is a chop has a short ‘shu’ and shooto has a long ‘shuu’: it’s a different set of kanji. That’s why the romanization is ‘shoo’. Shooto refers to two MMA tournament ‘styles’, venues or formats or what have you… kind of like san shou or san da. The ‘shoot’ comes from a leg shoot in wrestling etc and became Japanized, had kanji assigned to it and then came back to be romanized! There is shoot-boxing and shoot-wrestling, and to be honest I don’t know which is which, but I think I do shoot-boxing on account of Ryan starting out in Thai boxing (well after wing chun, but given his opinions on that we’d better not go into it!) and having in a large part a stand-up game first. It was started by some geezer whose name I can’t remember (Mamoru?) and there has been a video of one of his extremely brutal training sessions posted on here a couple of times with him ruthlessly beating people until they bleed with sticks etc. I think he started in kyokushin karate but again, I don’t know. Needless to say, the training techs have been modernized a bit since then! The rules are basically the same as Pride/UFC except mostly they have no elbows (unless they have a Thai-shooto hybrid match which happens sometimes). A lot of shooto fighters are hard-workers who can’t break into K1 or Pride for various organizational and promotion reasons. The money in Shooto is a fraction of Pride/UFC/K1 and most of the fighters are in smaller divisions: top names get about 4000 dollars for a win. If you go onto Sherdog and check up Ryan Bow for example, you’ll get into a whole great list of fighters in shooto. Some of them are definitely A-list in MMA: Takanori Gomi, Joachim Hansen etc to name but a couple who have gone on to bigger and better things. In my class we train boxing and muay thai for the first half (an hour and a half) and wrestling and jujutsu for the other half, and mix it up in sparring. I go primarily because I want to test my kungfu and I don’t have the time or money to go into pro fighting. Largely the kungfu works OK with MMA gloves, but not if we’re wearing boxing gloves! I do always naturally want to follow up with the elbows however! And it is nice to do a bit of thai kicking and sharpen up my combos a la boxing… the dynamics of the boxing hook has given me great insight into the WC hook from biu gee. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cloud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Green\_Cloud](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Green_Cloud)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/25 "2006-02-09T16:32:46Z")
Thanks for the info mat, sounds like exciting stuff. Hey could you post that brutal video you spoke of?? Please forgive my morbid curiosity:) ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Punch](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/mr_punch/32/273_2.png) [@Mr\_Punch](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Mr_Punch)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 4:28am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/26 "2006-02-10T04:28:25Z")
I don’t have it, but it’s on here somewhere, so either search yourself or I will when I have the time. ---
**Author:** ![Sifu\_Darkfist](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sifu_darkfist/32/622_2.png) [@Sifu\_Darkfist](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Sifu_Darkfist)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:35am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/27 "2006-02-10T05:35:13Z")
Best Did not your mommy and daddy or master tell there is no best? there is always someone better ---
**Author:** ![MeatTosser](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/meattosser/32/531_2.png) [@MeatTosser](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/MeatTosser)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 9:47am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/28 "2006-02-10T09:47:46Z")
> [@SevenStar](#): > > tournaments have changed a lot since then, mainly due the popularity of san da, full contact fighting in general and mma. outside of muay thai, you rarely saw leg kicks, and you NEVER saw ground work. Also, that was almost 30 years ago. there have been many advances in our knowledge of proper training since then. So, the fighters from today would most likely be bettered conditioned than those of the past. in past “regular” tournaments of past decades, yes. But if we go back further than this century, a lot of tournaments were brutal, and often to near-death. (Not often in Western areas though, although they probably had their undeground circuit.) Plus, even in this century, there have always been the seedy, underground, illegal NHB matches in China, in the dark recesses of cities, heh heh. 🙂 Of course, it wouldn’t be wise for someone to go there willingly, unless maybe you really needed the money. ---
**Author:** ![LeeCasebolt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a9a28c/32.png) [@LeeCasebolt](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/LeeCasebolt)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/29 "2006-02-11T18:53:24Z")
> [@Mat](#): > > Sorry, I hadn’t noticed. > > There is shoot-boxing and shoot-wrestling, and to be honest I don’t know which is which, but I think I do shoot-boxing on account of Ryan starting out in Thai boxing (well after wing chun, but given his opinions on that we’d better not go into it!) and having in a large part a stand-up game first. > > It was started by some geezer whose name I can’t remember (Mamoru?) and there has been a video of one of his extremely brutal training sessions posted on here a couple of times with him ruthlessly beating people until they bleed with sticks etc. I think he started in kyokushin karate but again, I don’t know. Shootboxing is basically Japanese san shou/sanda - kickboxing with throws. Shootwrestling cna refer to either generic submission wrestling or to MMA-type competition (which is usually shootfighting). Shooto was founded by Sayama (forgot his first name), who was a pro wrestler under the name Tiger Mask. I’m not that familiar with the origins of the shooto organization, but I think it began as a shootboxing promotion and gradually morphed into an MMA promotion as similar groups (UWFi, Pancrase, UFC) came along. Late 90’s Shooto was top-notch MMA, especially for the lighter weights. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Punch](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/mr_punch/32/273_2.png) [@Mr\_Punch](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Mr_Punch)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 11:51am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/30 "2006-02-12T11:51:51Z")
> [@LeeCasebolt](#): > > Late 90’s Shooto was top-notch MMA, especially for the lighter weights. Cheers for the clearing-up Lee. I think it still produces a lot of good lighter weights, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Punch](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/mr_punch/32/273_2.png) [@Mr\_Punch](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Mr_Punch)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 11:58am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/31 "2006-02-12T11:58:44Z")
Green Cloud: [Here’s](http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/kungfuteacher.html) that twat Satoru Sayama. Maybe NWS ads. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cloud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Green\_Cloud](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Green_Cloud)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 1:31pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/32 "2006-02-12T13:31:12Z")
That’s harsh, but then again his class was filled with students. Maybe I should do that to my student’s when they’re late with tuition. But seriously what’s the deal with that guy and why were those guys taking that \*\*\*\* from him. Mat do you have any backround info on this guy??? Is that Shooto:D ---
**Author:** ![Phil\_Redmond](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/phil_redmond/32/186_2.png) [@Phil\_Redmond](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Phil_Redmond)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/33 "2006-02-12T15:47:29Z")
> [@Green Cloud](#): > > Keith mazza seems to be the senior guy right now and yea I met him and he’s a big mo fo. Actually Gus, there are a few more senior than Keith Mazza. I am one of them. Keith Mazza’s school is the headquarters for North America though. Keith was a student of Gary Young. I was present in NJ at William Cheungs 65th birthday party in Oct. 2005 when Keith Mazza was accepted as an 'Indoor" student by Cheung Sifu. He is now officially a student of William Cheung and not Gary Young. And with regards to Keith being on any website link for MMA he probably wouldn’t be. He had some problems with the organization he fought for and he left them. So I can see them not putting his name on any list. 😉 Phil ---
**Author:** ![Phil\_Redmond](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/phil_redmond/32/186_2.png) [@Phil\_Redmond](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Phil_Redmond)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/34 "2006-02-12T15:59:10Z")
> [@sihing](#): > > Out of the remaining students in the association, meaning the ones still with GM Cheung, the best is supposed to be Sifu Keith Mazza (he’s something like 6’3" and 240lbs and has fought successfully in NHB events), from New Jersey. > > My Sifu was with GM Cheung up until 94’. He learned TWC from Cheung himself in Aussie Land back in 86’ and learned the whole Cirriculum in 8 months, returning back home here in 87’. There is also Sifu Rick Spain from Australia, who won the Hong Kong fighting championship back in 82’ I believe, middleweight division (Spain is also no longer associated with Cheung). Another TWC practitioner under Cheung, his name is Joe (can’t spell his last name), won the heavyweight division for that same year also. I’ve only heard good things about Spain, but have never seen him in action. > > James Hi James, Cheung Sifu wasn’t teaching in 1986. He stopped teaching years earlier and had a student teach at the school like he had Dana Wong do. He was touring doing seminars and wasn’t in Australia the whole time during 1986. He would do private lessons when he was in Australia though so I can see your Sifu getting some lessons directly from Cheung Sifu. Sifu used to do at least 3 world tours during those years and he’s stay in NYC a while training me, Victor Parlati, and Sonny Whitmore so we could start teaching there. Phil ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cloud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Green\_Cloud](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Green_Cloud)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/35 "2006-02-12T17:34:00Z")
Who is the Dai Si Hing??? Phil I know your a senior, but can you list the senior top guys in order. Are you the Dai si hing you seem to be the most knowledgeable.😕 greencloud.net ---
**Author:** ![sihing](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sihing/32/521_2.png) [@sihing](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/sihing)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/36 "2006-02-12T18:22:04Z")
> [@Phil Redmond](#): > > Hi James, Cheung Sifu wasn’t teaching in 1986. He stopped teaching years earlier and had a student teach at the school like he had Dana Wong do. He was touring doing seminars and wasn’t in Australia the whole time during 1986. He would do private lessons when he was in Australia though so I can see your Sifu getting some lessons directly from Cheung Sifu. Sifu used to do at least 3 world tours during those years and he’s stay in NYC a while training me, Victor Parlati, and Sonny Whitmore so we could start teaching there. > Phil Hi Phil, From what I understand he was teaching in 86’. Sifu said that Cheung would personally take aside the international students and bring them through somethings on a very regular basis. He also invited all the international students over to his house for a dinner reception. His brother David was teaching alot also. Simu used to come go the school there in Australia and watch the class all the time, many times Cheung would striking up conversations with her…She and Sifu also accompanied Cheung on a summer camp or two, they really enjoyed that part.. James ---
**Author:** ![Phil\_Redmond](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/phil_redmond/32/186_2.png) [@Phil\_Redmond](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Phil_Redmond)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/37 "2006-02-12T19:47:54Z")
> [@Green Cloud](#): > > Phil I know your a senior, but can you list the senior top guys in order. Are you the Dai si hing you seem to be the most knowledgeable.😕 > > greencloud.net [If I miss anyone’s name it wasn’t intentional] Blaine Collins of Nevada is the most senior in North America. He met William Cheung in Australia when he was in the Navy. That’s how Sifu (Cheung), got to teach the U.S. Marines and Sailors with the 7th Fleet. Blaine got Sifu to come to the States to do a seminars. I think the first seminar was in Las Vegas in 1983. Eric Oram (LA), John Clayton, (MD), Bill O’Connell, (LV) are the only ones I remember that were ate that seminar and became students. So they are among my seniors. The next seminar was the two week July 1983 UCLA seminars. (I was already a WC Sifu but decided to start over again in TWC at that time.) Jerrry Bolding (KS), (Bolding may have been at the first one) Charles Boness (WI), is one that I remember from that one. The next one that year was in Boston. That’s where Dana Wong, Victor Parlati, etc. met Sifu Cheung. The very first seminar held in NYC was at my school in Soho. somewhere in between Boston and NYC Cheung Sifu stayed at Gary Young’s house in White Plains. Keith Mazza was Young’s student and obviously got the see Sifu during that period but was still learning from Young. Sifu eventually took an interest in Keith and started teaching him personally. In Oct. 2005 during Sifu Cheung’s 65th birthday party Sifu announced that Keith Mazza was now his “indoor” student, which took Keith by surprise. Phil ---
**Author:** ![Phil\_Redmond](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/phil_redmond/32/186_2.png) [@Phil\_Redmond](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Phil_Redmond)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 7:57pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/38 "2006-02-12T19:57:34Z")
> [@sihing](#): > > Hi Phil, > > From what I understand he was teaching in 86’. Sifu said that Cheung would personally take aside the international students and bring them through somethings on a very regular basis. He also invited all the international students over to his house for a dinner reception. His brother David was teaching alot also. > > Simu used to come go the school there in Australia and watch the class all the time, many times Cheung would striking up conversations with her…She and Sifu also accompanied Cheung on a summer camp or two, they really enjoyed that part.. > > James He probably did teach some, but he wasn’t there the whole year in '86. He toured many countries to do seminars that year on at least three different occaisions. He would come to NYC a few weeks before the seminar and a few weeks after the seminar to get us prepared to start schools in NYC. Sifu does only two world tours now but back then he used to come to the States 3 to 4 times yearly. How do i know? I was the President of the East coast region of the WWCFK Association. Sonny Whitmore was Vice Prez, and Victor Parlati was treasurer. Blaine Collins was Dai Sihing and Prez of North America. I still have or monthy newletters and other records in case I need to refresh myself on dates and events. Phil ---
**Author:** ![sihing](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sihing/32/521_2.png) [@sihing](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/sihing)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/39 "2006-02-12T20:51:24Z")
> [@Phil Redmond](#): > > He probably did teach some, but he wasn’t there the whole year in '86. He toured many countries to do seminars that year on at least three different occaisions. He would come to NYC a few weeks before the seminar and a few weeks after the seminar to get us prepared to start schools in NYC. Sifu does only two world tours now but back then he used to come to the States 3 to 4 times yearly. How do i know? I was the President of the East coast region of the WWCFK Association. Sonny Whitmore was Vice Prez, and Victor Parlati was treasurer. Blaine Collins was Dai Sihing and Prez of North America. I still have or monthy newletters and other records in case I need to refresh myself on dates and events. > Phil That’s true Phil. As Sifu was there when the whole Cheung/Boztepe thing happened and was surprised he said to see William back so soon from Germany when it all happened. That’s when he found out about the attack and such. So there was of course times when William was gone and other’s were there to teach the students.. James ---
**Author:** ![Phil\_Redmond](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/phil_redmond/32/186_2.png) [@Phil\_Redmond](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Phil_Redmond)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105/40 "2006-02-13T23:38:05Z")
> [@sihing](#): > > That’s true Phil. As Sifu was there when the whole Cheung/Boztepe thing happened and was surprised he said to see William back so soon from Germany when it all happened. That’s when he found out about the attack and such. So there was of course times when William was gone and other’s were there to teach the students.. > > James I agree and by no means was I trying to demean your Sifu. In fact, he and I exchanged emails a while back. Phil [Previous page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/whos-the-best-wing-chun-guy/35105.md?page=3)