# what the difference? **URL:** \ **Category:** Wing Chun\ **Created:** [October 20, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465 "2010-10-20T19:56:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![t\_niehoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d6d6ee/32.png) [@t\_niehoff](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/t_niehoff)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/21 "2010-10-21T16:21:27Z")
[QUOTE=YungChun;1050949] In any case the problem with Chun IMO is not that the throws are missing… (or that the secret way is missing) Not by a long shot.. [/QUOTE] But one problem is that people don’t want to look outside their own little lineage and see the broader view of WCK. Take the throws, sweeps that horserider talks about – even if you don’t want to use them as throws or sweeps but only as ways of destroying structure (you don’t fully execute the sweep or throw but only do it enough to disrupt your opponent) – they are elements of the broader art. ---
**Author:** ![t\_niehoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d6d6ee/32.png) [@t\_niehoff](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/t_niehoff)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/22 "2010-10-21T16:26:02Z")
[QUOTE=YungChun;1050955]Throws are not fight enders.. They are fight repeaters.. They normally do less damage which is why they are emphasized in Aiki.. Not to say you couldn’t throw them into pavement and hurt them badly, still typically not. For the ‘polite contest’ sure.[/QUOTE] You are not looking from the historical/cultural context but from a modern context. ---
**Author:** ![YungChun](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/yungchun/32/339_2.png) [@YungChun](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/YungChun)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/23 "2010-10-21T16:29:30Z")
[QUOTE=t\_niehoff;1050959]But one problem is that people don’t want to look outside their own little lineage and see the broader view of WCK. Take the throws, sweeps that horserider talks about – even if you don’t want to use them as throws or sweeps but only as ways of destroying structure (you don’t fully execute the sweep or throw but only do it enough to disrupt your opponent) – they are elements of the broader art.[/QUOTE] That’s what they are… We have tons of leg moves.. I just don’t think of them as sweeps per se but as horse destroyers..and normally that is from inside with contact, as in the kicks… Still it’s not IMO “the goal”…but part of a process or stage of control.. ---
**Author:** ![YungChun](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/yungchun/32/339_2.png) [@YungChun](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/YungChun)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/24 "2010-10-21T16:31:27Z")
[QUOTE=t\_niehoff;1050964]You are not looking from the historical/cultural context but from a modern context.[/QUOTE] Well in the old days you remarked that they would throw in a contest right? Exactly my point: It was a (safer) way to show control without pounding his face into mush..still is. ---
**Author:** ![t\_niehoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d6d6ee/32.png) [@t\_niehoff](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/t_niehoff)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/25 "2010-10-21T16:33:10Z")
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1050950]Proof… of people actually applying these things against resisting opponents… not some theoretical pretend nonsense done in the dummy form.[/QUOTE] horserider mentions: Look at the last move of the Yip Man dummy form for this. It is a lop sau with a sweep/kick to the supporting leg. A lop Sau done correctly is a throw. The man lands on his face. kicking out the support leg insures this. Or, to put this in modern terms, a two-on-one and a foot sweep. ---
**Author:** ![t\_niehoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d6d6ee/32.png) [@t\_niehoff](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/t_niehoff)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/26 "2010-10-21T16:43:23Z")
[QUOTE=YungChun;1050969]That’s what they are… We have tons of leg moves.. I just don’t think of them as sweeps per se but as horse destroyers..and normally that is from inside with contact, as in the kicks… Still it’s not IMO “the goal”…but part of a process or stage of control..[/QUOTE] Sum Nung told Rene that he always wanted to put his opponent on the floor (even after beating him senseless) since then “there would be no question as to who won the fight.” I think this was the old-timers’ view. And they taught, get in, control him while pounding him, and then finish by putting him on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![YungChun](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/yungchun/32/339_2.png) [@YungChun](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/YungChun)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/27 "2010-10-21T16:50:18Z")
[QUOTE=t\_niehoff;1050992]Sum Nung told Rene that he always wanted to put his opponent on the floor (even after beating him senseless) since then “there would be no question as to who won the fight.” I think this was the old-timers’ view. And they taught, get in, control him while pounding him, and then finish by putting him on the ground.[/QUOTE] I can see that… That is the end result of breaking the horse and holding him up to finish him.. ---
**Author:** ![chusauli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@chusauli](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/chusauli)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/28 "2010-10-21T16:50:51Z")
Even the word “Saat” (Cantonese) or “Sha” (Mandarin) in Chinese didn’t always mean “Killed” - it could also mean “disabled” or “unconscious”, “stopped” or “Knocked-out”, or “Killed his ardor/desire” depending on the context. Chinese martial arts practitioners have generally stopped when one is knocked down to the ground or off a Lei Tai. ---
**Author:** ![t\_niehoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d6d6ee/32.png) [@t\_niehoff](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/t_niehoff)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/29 "2010-10-21T16:51:24Z")
[QUOTE=horserider;1050935] Yes, of course a fight can be finished with a punch,elbow or Knee etc etc. However all one needs to do is watch any UFC and see how many punches are thrown and of those how many actually end fights to see that in the real world, not the ,my version of wing chun is better than your version of wing chun world, relying on a strike to finish a fight is not a truly practical solution. [/QUOTE] And if we look at the same UFC fights, you don’t see sweeps or throws ending fights either, do we? As I said, I think the the old days, they wanted to put the opponent on the floor (even after beating him senseless) since then “there would be no question as to who won the fight.” And so they taught, get in, control him while pounding him, and then finish by putting him on the ground. It wasn’t that the throw in-and-of itself “finished” the opponent but that you performed it when you were finished beating the crap out of him! However, in “friendly” fights, it was a good way to establish who had superior skills since to perform it required that you get in safely, control the opponent to set up the throw or sweep, and then execute it. And to do so without having to put a hurt in. ---
**Author:** ![horserider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7ea924/32.png) [@horserider](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/horserider)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/30 "2010-10-21T17:46:27Z")
[QUOTE=t\_niehoff;1051004]And if we look at the same UFC fights, you don’t see sweeps or throws ending fights either, do we? Lol have you ever tried to throw or sweep spme one who is resisting ,punching ,countering ,attacking you? Watch high level Judoka . How pretty are their throws? Without striking? Not very. Wing Chun has a whole series of throws and sweeps. they work best after you have punched or elbowed some one a few times thus stunning them or breaking their center or gaining control over their center of gravity in some way. It seems like this whole form has been sold a bill of goods. Wing Chun is not some magic that will allow you to do things that no other fighting art can do. No Kung Fu movie fights although they do look good. Wing chun trains all phases of stand up fighting ending with throws to the ground. This should be no different than any other stand up art. Boxing is a sport so no throws. Also wing chun trains how to resist /prevent being thrown or swept. No magic no special only i know the real wing chun. It is in all wing chun. Yung Chun I can not help if you were not taught the whole system. I have talked with many wing chun Sifu from many different families over the years including Ip Man direct students. Everyone had the same elements just what some emphasized was different. I have been told be several Ip Man students over the years he told them to go out and fight if they really wanted to learn wing chun. It is very clear that even if these student of Ip Man did this his grand and great grand students have not done this. ---
**Author:** ![Knifefighter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@Knifefighter](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Knifefighter)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/31 "2010-10-21T17:53:09Z")
[QUOTE=horserider;1051063]Lol have you ever tried to throw or sweep spme one who is resisting ,punching ,countering ,attacking you? Watch high level Judoka . How pretty are their throws? Without striking? Not very. Wing Chun has a whole series of throws and sweeps. they work best after you have punched or elbowed some one a few times thus stunning them or breaking their center or gaining control over their center of gravity in some way. It seems like this whole form has been sold a bill of goods. Wing Chun is not some magic that will allow you to do things that no other fighting art can do. No Kung Fu movie fights although they do look good. Wing chun trains all phases of stand up fighting ending with throws to the ground. This should be no different than any other stand up art. Boxing is a sport so no throws. Also wing chun trains how to resist /prevent being thrown or swept. No magic no special only i know the real wing chun. It is in all wing chun. Yung Chun I can not help if you were not taught the whole system. I have talked with many wing chun Sifu from many different families over the years including Ip Man direct students. Everyone had the same elements just what some emphasized was different.[/QUOTE] Great… so you apparently have the “realz” WC. Post a sparring clip or two to demonstrate it. ---
**Author:** ![horserider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7ea924/32.png) [@horserider](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/horserider)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/32 "2010-10-21T19:31:42Z")
Great… so you apparently have the “realz” WC. Post a sparring clip or two to demonstrate it. Your spelling as bad as mine English not your native language either? There is no " real" wing chun just wing chun. Sorry if some one take your money tell you they teach you wing chun then not do it. Not my fault or problem. Why? ---
**Author:** ![bennyvt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecb155/32.png) [@bennyvt](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/bennyvt)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/33 "2010-10-21T20:13:43Z")
man I go to sleep with two reponses and now its about if throws finish fights.:eek: ---
**Author:** ![m1k3](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/m1k3/32/846_2.png) [@m1k3](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/m1k3)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/34 "2010-10-21T20:16:23Z")
[QUOTE=horserider;1051128]Great… so you apparently have the “realz” WC. Post a sparring clip or two to demonstrate it. Your spelling as bad as mine English not your native language either? There is no " real" wing chun just wing chun. Sorry if some one take your money tell you they teach you wing chun then not do it. Not my fault or problem. Why?[/QUOTE] realz is internet talk. Why does he want proof, because so many people claim to have the real wing chun but it only works when you are doing drills and not against people who are fighting back. Now, my turn. What I have read from T. and Horserider makes WC sound a lot like the grip and hand fighting and entry techniques used in Judo or Greco wrestling. Of course with the addition of strikes. So, is chi sao similar to pummeling exercises done in grappling classes? If that had been the case I might have stuck with it. ---
**Author:** ![m1k3](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/m1k3/32/846_2.png) [@m1k3](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/m1k3)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/35 "2010-10-21T20:21:11Z")
Back to the original question. I think one of the biggest differences is that in bjj once you start rolling you continue until someone taps or time runs out. In the chi sao I did, and what I see posted all the time, is you go until someone lands a strike of some sort or contact is broken and then you reset. From my personal experience the intensity is very different also. ---
**Author:** ![bennyvt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecb155/32.png) [@bennyvt](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/bennyvt)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/36 "2010-10-21T20:33:47Z")
In our school chi sao stops when you have complete control, normally hitting and the other guy has stopped defending. We learn if you are hit then hit back. I have been to several schools were they call it cheating if they hit you and you hit them back, weird. It becomes like a tag game. The strikes continue until they are stopped. how else do you learn to actually fight. If they hit you, you must do something to stop it not just go “\*\*\*\*, I should have stopped that.” Any time we lose contact once at a certain level we just step back in but we aren’t rolling to make contact. Rolling only starts again if we are botyh stuck. We would class this more as gorsao. ---
**Author:** ![Knifefighter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@Knifefighter](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Knifefighter)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/37 "2010-10-21T20:35:39Z")
[QUOTE=m1k3;1051141]So, is chi sao similar to pummeling exercises done in grappling classes? If that had been the case I might have stuck with it.[/QUOTE] That’s how it SHOULD be done. ---
**Author:** ![YouKnowWho](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/youknowwho/32/583_2.png) [@YouKnowWho](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/YouKnowWho)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/38 "2010-10-21T20:37:04Z")
[QUOTE=m1k3;1051141]WC sound a lot like the grip and hand fighting and entry techniques …[/QUOTE] That’s a good point. It looks very similiar to the SC grip fight: [http://johnswang.com/sc\_grip\_fight.wmv](http://johnswang.com/sc_grip_fight.wmv) ---
**Author:** ![Knifefighter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@Knifefighter](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Knifefighter)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/39 "2010-10-21T20:37:57Z")
[QUOTE=horserider;1051128]Great… so you apparently have the “realz” WC. Post a sparring clip or two to demonstrate it. Your spelling as bad as mine English not your native language either? There is no " real" wing chun just wing chun. Sorry if some one take your money tell you they teach you wing chun then not do it. Not my fault or problem. Why?[/QUOTE] You claim to have something that most other people are doing incorrectly. It’s up to you to provide some type of evidence for that. Otherwise you are simply just another one of the hordes of theoretical, pretend, non-fighters who thinks he has the real deal. ---
**Author:** ![t\_niehoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d6d6ee/32.png) [@t\_niehoff](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/t_niehoff)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465/40 "2010-10-21T23:23:45Z")
[QUOTE=m1k3;1051141] What I have read from T. and Horserider makes WC sound a lot like the grip and hand fighting and entry techniques used in Judo or Greco wrestling. Of course with the addition of strikes. So, is chi sao similar to pummeling exercises done in grappling classes? If that had been the case I might have stuck with it.[/QUOTE] You’ve got the picture. [Previous page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/what-the-difference/49465.md?page=3)