[QUOTE=David Jamieson;901186]care to translate that or risk having it transliterated. 
Only fair as this is an english forum. I mean, I could, but it might not have the same context as what you are trying to say with the statement.[/QUOTE]
Simply, Zen and martial art are non dual.
[QUOTE=richard sloan;900719]sufficient proof in the pudding[/QUOTE]
Great now I want pudding.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;901208]Simply, Zen and martial art are non dual.[/QUOTE]
ok, but we, each of us are. we cannot be anything but subjective about ourselves or any observations we make about ourselves or anything.
It is within our very nature of being to be dualistic in our approach to all things.
Even in zen there are sayings like âhow can you know darkness if you have never experienced light?â and things of this sort which point at our dualistic nature in order to further understand them.
In martial art, how can you know martial art if you never express yourself martially? Another example of where dualism is key to our understanding of ourselves.
In and of themselves, perhaps so, but in context to human usage, they are anything but singular.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;901210]
Even in zen there are sayings like âhow can you know darkness if you have never experienced light?â and things of this sort which point at our dualistic nature in order to further understand them.[/QUOTE]
not exactly.
you have to be carefulâŚchâan is intuitive and this is where a lot of people get tripped up.
[QUOTE=richard sloan;901266]not exactly.
you have to be carefulâŚchâan is intuitive and this is where a lot of people get tripped up.[/QUOTE]
Some just love to spin thier mind and keep spinning and spinningâŚ
[QUOTE=richard sloan;901266]not exactly.
you have to be carefulâŚchâan is intuitive and this is where a lot of people get tripped up.[/QUOTE]
People get tripped up in the ideas of zen all the time. Like taoism, the more you chase understanding of the way, the further away it (understanding) goes.
Please forgive me for refusing to discuss zen any further than only the superficial. It is an excruciatingly wasteful exercise from my point of view to do so and I simply stopped doing it some time ago.
zen and martial art are non dual is a state.
That is oneâs original state before all those mind recogniction, differentiation, trying to controlâŚetc were evoke of created.
It is NOt an idea,
It is Not a thought, Not a philosophy. Not something to think about. Not some point of view. It is an Original state every living being shared all day long but most dont recognized.
In that state, it is NON ego, NoN time, NoN winning, Non Losing, Non EnermyâŚ
It is a state of âthere originally not a thing , how can one collect dust?â â six patriac suttra.
Thus, One cant get there by spinning the mind. One got to get there by dropping the thoughts.
That is the soul of Shao Lin, that is the reason Shao Lin is not Wu Dang.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;900964]
If its 3 dimensional it has 5 sides!
and so on.
[/quote]
to be specific since we are discussing definitions that is no longer quite a âtriangleâ but some kind of polyhedra like a tetrahedron.
So, if one is actively using the methods on whatever level, why cannot they be shaolin or at least be able to acknowledge that aspect of them self?
I donât see why they canât? But why canât their part of the pie be known to be mushroom as opposed to the other half of the pizza which is black olives and onions.
[QUOTE=richard sloan;901409]to be specific since we are discussing definitions that is no longer quite a âtriangleâ but some kind of polyhedra like a tetrahedron.
I donât see why they canât? But why canât their part of the pie be known to be mushroom as opposed to the other half of the pizza which is black olives and onions.[/QUOTE]
1.) yes, geometry is awesome!
2.) i believe that is how it is?
further to #2. What is at shaolin now, in the here and now is what is actually and truly âshaolinâ. By definition, geographical location, etc. But, with the diaspora of Shaolin, to zen in japan, kungfu in Taishan or Hong Kong or the rest of the world outside that has some of those seeds and in some respects, a whole vaults worth of seeds including some varities that were once within the monastery but are no longer.
Iâm sure most people recognize their half of the pizza is mushrooms, but at the same time, itâs the same pizza despite the placement of the toppings.
then you see my point.
[QUOTE=richard sloan;901635]then you see my point.[/QUOTE]
somewhat, although I donât think I share the view that Shaolin is âonlyâ what is at teh temple or sanctioned by the temple. I think the temple of Shaolin now is entirely new and mostly created for tourism and money and to fill a void created by desire.
whereas, the diaspora type is undertaken by choice, adopted as a lifestyle by some and has the opportunity to go much deeper and further than what is possible in the temple as it is now.
there are restrictions being in China and under the auspices of the PRC after all that are not present in countries that have more freedoms.
So, in that sense, it is not a question of which is better or more authentic, but rather, which part of it effects each of us who undertake to practice and at what point do you feel that you are becoming what it is you practice to be?
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;901661]somewhat, although I donât think I share the view that Shaolin is âonlyâ what is at teh temple or sanctioned by the temple. I think the temple of Shaolin now is entirely new and mostly created for tourism and money and to fill a void created by desire.
whereas, the diaspora type is undertaken by choice, adopted as a lifestyle by some and has the opportunity to go much deeper and further than what is possible in the temple as it is now.
there are restrictions being in China and under the auspices of the PRC after all that are not present in countries that have more freedoms.
So, in that sense, it is not a question of which is better or more authentic, but rather, which part of it effects each of us who undertake to practice and at what point do you feel that you are becoming what it is you practice to be?[/QUOTE]
Try telling that to the 50,000 plus practitioners that train & live in Deng Feng. It is their lifestyle. Most of what is debated on these forums or criticized by others about modern Shaolin are the parts that effect those who undertake to practice. They are becoming what they practice to be. Shaolin Kung Fu just doesnât have a deeper meaning for those who live there. Not to mention there are lots and lots of monks or potential monks that never leave Shaolin or get a chance to go tour.
I understand this thread wasnât meant for a authenticity debate but it is a reason why it is a touchy subject. Practitioners of other styles will relate their feelings but so will the Songshan Shaolin followers too. Usually it will end up to a finger pointing match. To some outside of shaolin they say itâs fake and for those that have lived, trained or spent lots of time from the monks that leave there will always offer a different view.
[QUOTE=Songshan;902341]Try telling that to the 50,000 plus practitioners that train & live in Deng Feng. It is their lifestyle. Most of what is debated on these forums or criticized by others about modern Shaolin are the parts that effect those who undertake to practice. They are becoming what they practice to be. Shaolin Kung Fu just doesnât have a deeper meaning for those who live there. Not to mention there are lots and lots of monks or potential monks that never leave Shaolin or get a chance to go tour.
I understand this thread wasnât meant for a authenticity debate but it is a reason why it is a touchy subject. Practitioners of other styles will relate their feelings but so will the Songshan Shaolin followers too. Usually it will end up to a finger pointing match. To some outside of shaolin they say itâs fake and for those that have lived, trained or spent lots of time from the monks that leave there will always offer a different view.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. Although I personally would hesitate to make such hard divisions.
What is at Shaolin now is valid. I donât have any qualms with it at all.
What is available through the traditional lineages and that has been removed from the temple over the years is also valid.
What is built o deception and lies is not valid and is not what is being addressed here. We all know that exists. Itâs not important though. At least, not to me.