What is your own theory of internal Martial Arts?

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
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I like to hear from internal practitioners that have they own wisdom, knowledge and personal power that that develop from they own personal internal practice.

Many internal practitioners on kung fu on line replie with internal theory and application knowledge that is not of they own living encountering."

Most internal practitioners on this web page are giving some good advice on theory, but the theory in they statements are not based on they own personal knowledge and own experience.

They base they understanding of internal knowledge on decreased Chinese masters of past, Chi theory that may not work in a common street fight. There is nothing mysterious about seeing a person get his ass kick on the streets.

But when people talk about the internal martial arts, people love to talk about fighting in the internal as if its mysterious or strange.

I call these people myth fighters, they don’t have any real understanding of Martial Arts. Because they have no real life knowledge.

They are a slave to Chinese internal Martial Arts literature on theory, and fear to explore and established new theory for a better practical combat strategy or just a way of living.(better strategy of living) In other words they read about internal Martial arts, but they don’t practice to have true understanding and knowledge.

So I would like to hear from the real taoist method practitioners of Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Hsing Yi of 2002. I like to hear your own experence and personal understanding and knowledge of theory. I don’t want to hear about Chinese dead past masters statements of theory, masters like Sun Lu Tang,Chen Man Ching or Yeuh Fei’s Hsing Yi theses. For their theory is of they own personal practice not yours."

So internal Martial Art Brothers my question is?

If you had two friends that ask you to teach them internal Martial Arts. One of your friends just wanted to learn Chi Kung to increase his health and vitality,and the other friend wanted to learn how to fight with the internal Martial arts.

How would you teach them to develop and increase in wisdom knowledge and they own personal power, from your own experience and personal understanding and knowledge of your internal Martial Art method?

:smiley:

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This is what I’d say to those two friends because this is how my “internal” style operates:

I teach, you learn.
Empty your cup first.

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I’d teach 'em both in the same way. It’s not my fault if one of them quits:D

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"I teach, you learn. "

Is it such a one way street?

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Originally posted by shaolinboxer
[B]"I teach, you learn. "

Is it such a one way street? [/B]

Pretty much. If you want to learn to read, it doesn’t matter if you want to read a book or write one. You still need to know that an adjective describes a noun. You still need to know that a verb describes action. There’s no way around it.

If you want to learn math, there’s no way of getting around 2+2=4.

Same thing in CMA. Doesn’t matter WHY you want to learn. The learning is the same.

6

The basics are the same.
Given your example I would teach both the same.

The practice itself leads to a type of understanding about the self, that later builds the foundation for MA usage at a later time.

The one wanting to develop a MA usage would have to do other things that would build on the foundation and test s/he usage and understanding of foundational skills.

the level of skill depends on envolment and desire.

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Peace all."

Thank you guys for your replys." But I would like a more in-death description of how you will teach your own knowledge of therory and internal Martial Arts training. What kind of trainng program would you established for your friends, to encourage them to train hard on the own and make progress and constantly improve they own personal knowledge and Martial skills?

Also what if one of your friends has a timid mindset. How would you help him overcome fear. What would be your method of teaching?:smiley:

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When I teach, each ‘maxim’ used to describe something can be defined and related to a specific, measurable result. I prefer to break down the training so that each step logically follows into the next - although it not always easy to see for the student.

By emphasizing an overall school doctrine, the strategies it is built on, and the tactics that get you there, a student is supplied with the tools they need to excel. Why shouldn’t CMA be taught logically? Our ‘competitors’ in the MMA world have no problem teaching openly.

Nothing is vague, nothing is a someday. It is always ‘Here is what you do.’ The experience and the result is quantified by the students experience. I also encourage students to challenge the material and how it is taught - well, at least once they have an idea of what I am talking about. Teaching is as much a learning experience for me as it is for the student. Just like CMA, you get better at teaching from practice.

If a person is timid, I seek to guide them - the material is the same, but how they get introduced to it may be different. My school has methods for developing courage, and they may be more pronounced for the timid student.

Lately, I have been using more Western phisiology and kinesiology to explain how to do things. This often produces a quicker result, and less time is wasted looking for mystical answers. I cannot say that this works 100%, but based on the reviews I am getting from my students, and the improvements in thier skill, it seems to be working.

What is your approach?

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What my classmate is trying to say is, If you’ve trained for a certain amount of time and you are now ready to teach, In the course of your learning you should (by now) have developed your own concepts of the teaching and how it applies to you thus forming your own idea’s. how would you apply this in your own teaching towards the two students.

Maoshan

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When I train people nothing is theory. They either find it in themselves or the feel it in me.
If there is a question the answer is immediate through direct exprince.

My training progresses from standing, to walking, linking upper and lower body together though movements out of the form.

This is most of the class.
As the they pick up the desired skill more movement is introduced. My goal when working with someone is to establish a base line that there body remembers, This is not always a pleasant experience. for them.

I go as much as they can stand and little more, this doesn’t help me retain anybody but then again I don’t charge money, you pay in sweat.

If they can survive the basics they should be over their timidness.
My training address the fundamental aspects of my art in a very direct way, it is my training too.

There are two questions that I address. Can you do it/ show me.
This is no less then I expect of myself.

For me my standards and my art are much more important then producing some feel good stuff that is called TC. I don’t teach feel good i teach TC. :slight_smile:

that is how i approch working with some one, if they don’t like it thats cool too. :wink:

11

A fine line…

There is a very fine line between exploring new path(s) and reinventing the wheel. Often the “new” height is really the beginning of the end. We see that in Ch’an. Have you ever wonder why there is not much after the sixth patriarch? We kind of seeing that in JKD. Who or what surpassed its founder or founding principle. We certainly have seen that in modern WuShu. Demise of Chinese martial arts and the birth of Chinese martial sports.

With all due respects, Taoist theories are so poorly understood or rather they are so misunderstood that it makes no particular sense to many people. The term Taoist is just like a brand name only nowadays (i.e Taoist Tai Chi). There are not a lot of people who can “read” or “draw” the Tai Chi symbol correctly. That my friend is the most basic of Taoist theory and they can’t even handle that. Do you honestly expect they can teach what little they “know”?

Mantis108

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>"If you had two friends that ask you to teach them internal Martial Arts. One of your friends just wanted to learn Chi Kung to increase his health and vitality,and the other friend wanted to learn how to fight with the internal Martial arts.

How would you teach them to develop and increase in wisdom knowledge and they own personal power, from your own experience and personal understanding and knowledge of your internal Martial Art method?"<

If I told one friend that the discipline and health they seek is found in Tai Chi’s combative training, and told the other that the combative skills they seek are found through Chi kung’s healthful movement and energy management skills-training, they’d both get what they’re looking for. The principles are the same, but the focus and awareness are different.

Both are sound approaches, but In this case, it depends on my skill and depth of knowledge to guide each toward their goal in these roundabout methods. The most important component is how willing both students are to put their faith in my methods.

To paraphrase Stockhausen; “You can’t really teach anyone anything…You can only bring out what’s already there”

I try to help people develop their own training strategies and encourage them to take responsibility for their own learning. All I can do is impart the principles that lead them to discovering Tai Chi within themselves.

As for specific methods;

Chi Kung has two faces…performance and health. I introduce performance based Chi kung first so that solo practice is specific to what the player will be doing during their combative training. The specificity of the Chi Kung routines are mated seamlessly with TC’s 8 Gates and their attendant footwork. Only then is form and health based Chi Kung introduced.

Tai Chi has tactical universality and that aspect is simple enough to grasp, but as people start peeling back the layers, they begin to understand the depth and profundity that TC contains as an IDEA rather than a particular “style”

I approach Tai Chi on a conceptual level where the ideas of energy management and movement principles just happen to apply to all apsects of one’s being and doing. The guy who wants health teaches himself how to fight, and the guy who wants to learn fighting teaches himself how not to fight by avoiding trouble and focusing on his well-being.

That’s all for now…maybe more later

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“If you have been in Taiji for 5 years and it hasn’t changed you, you have wasted your time” – One of my teachers’ teachers

Martial arts, in my perspective are fighting arts. That is their purpose and all results will come from that pursuit.

I like to begin from day one with freestyle push hands. It is the laying of the foundation for future success. The essence of Taiji lies in Tui Shou and serious study provides insight into how we deal with people on all levels. It is purely Yin; submissive. It always yields and never discharges. The goal is to never let the opponent lay his force upon you. Relaxation is crucial and also builds efficient movement. You learn to respond and react by touch.

Martially, you develop the ability to not take a hit, not be set up for a throw, and to restrict the opponents movement. It’s very similar in principle to BJJ’s rolling in principle, but done standing. You always have control over the opponent. You control the angle, direction, speed, etc. The yielding will eventually lead into the execution of technique. When this is achieved, it is called the “Glorious union of Yin and Yang.” Basically the hard (technique training) has merged with the soft (Tui Shou training)

In combat the entire training above appears only for an instant. The fighter bridges in aggresively, reads the opponent at first contact and unbalances him, and delivers his power (technique)

The above integration occurs in free sparring.

Mentally, Tui Shou leads to a relaxed mind. The mind handles stress much better and thinks more clearly. Physically the body is relaxes. This reduces physical stress which may add years onto one’s life and has been medically proven to lead to a healthier existence into later years.

As far as health goes, all I can say is that I do have a developed sense of touch, and my wife loves Taoist massage, so Hey :wink:

A similar process applies to the rest of the training spectrum, but is geared toward technique, structure, Strength, Internal Development, etc.

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I’d teach one aikido, do softening excercises like push hands and blindfolded, bending in the wind. Teach them how to anticipate a strike, how to yield and bend with it and then basic aikido. (Taken from tai chi/ba gua anyways)

They would both meditate as water dragon said. I think you can greatly accelerate the ima if you want to. I think teachers make more money getting in from on 500 students and doing a set without caring how they are screwing up their knees.

I think that its possible to train someone to fight using tai chi within a few months for basic application to kick someone’s but while fighting on say…ice.

I’d also have them do bag work and spar with emphasis on nien or adhering. But hey, thats the way I’m trained, so I guess I would do the same.

stance work till they puke. Loads of chi kung. Not the "wow those 5 minutes really opened my elf chakra, but an hour of it in low postures, tendon excercises.

Chen village drove off an army of bandits. Did they all have 30 years to master it? Probably not. Could they learn pung and press and finish them off with a knife? Its far more likely. Besides tai chi can easlilly transfer to weapons because of the emphasis on waist movement.

15

i’d teach them both the same exercises, because most chi kung i know is martial chi gung…chi kung with martial application. the guy who wants better health gets it…the one who wants fighting skill gets it (if they practice). the one who wants martial skill would also do specific exercises that are just for fighting, not for chi gung, and when a good foundation is developed, would spar. they’d both definitly learn meditation as well.

i’d explain things to them using examples in the real world as examples of the importance of the exercises. the yin/yang symbol alone, if understood and explained right, gives many examples of proper approach and practice of chi gung and fighting, as does the wu xing. i’d also ask many questions, testing them in the principles of what they are learning, to make sure they know for themselves and aren’t just taking my word for law.

hopefully, if i give good enough real life examples of internal martial art practice, they can relate to it for themselves, therebye gaining the personal knowledge and power that you spoke of.

what do you think ?

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For me, I teach the same way I was taught:

get the solo set right first.

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My way of Teaching.

Very good Replys."

Monkey Slap Too: What is your approach?

My Approach to teaching a student relates to their mindset and phycsical work capacity in the following areas:

Strength, Cardiovascular function, muscular efficiency and comprehension level."

I would train a student first in standing chi Kung postures, a student training under me will learn first hand what stllness is all about by practicing it, not just reading theory about. I will train a student in standing Yi Chuan postures for at least ten minutes to half an hour each posture.

In my style of Yin BaGua We have 15 Yi Chuan postures. Most styles of BaGua only practice 8. The Yi Chuan postures are necessary for the students to build up the strength and muscular endurance of their legs and arms. With long time practice they postures will be natural and they mind will be calm and unified with they posture.

Step two is when I teach a student Chi Kung Sets with a general introduction to chi principles and theory in order for them to understand chi kung, the first set I teach a student is easy to understand and learn and practice on their own.

The Moving form of Chi Kung I teach a student is known as the taoist ten warm ups. This is a very simple moving Chi Kung set that I learn from Master B. P. Chen. This Moving form of Chi Kung develop the large muscles, and loosen all the joints of the human body.

After a student is in better physical condition I will then teach them more Chi Kung sets to increase their health and physical condition. Other chi kung sets I will teach my students will be Do Mo Wai Dan exercises and a lot of Yin Style Wai Dan exercises to build up the Chi(energy) at the wrist and palms.

When a student have learned and complete all the sets, I will then teach them the 8 mother palms of Yin style BaGuaZhang. Afther learning the 8 mother palms a student may begin to learn other forms of BaguaZhang.

but most of the time I will first teach a student William C. C. Chen form of Yang style Tai Chi. So that my students can learn how to relax in their movements. I then will teach them William C. C. Chen form of freestyle push hands(tui Shou) as I learned the method from him. After a student is good at sticking and know how to neutralize, evade and develop their sensitivity to a good level.

I then move them on to Kung Fu traditional body conditioning exercises:

Two man Conditioning, solo Post training, palm training.and iron shirt Chi kung auxiliary traning.(Impact training many ways of training this method)

I then will teach a student San Shou Freefighting , first a student will start training martial techniques and applications in a set way. Then they will teach theirself how to skillfully utilize they martial techniques unrehash in freefighting.(sparring)

If I have a timid student most of the time I teach them the five fist of Hsing YI and some Taoist sitting meditation methods. I then will teach a timid student the Ann Shen Pau Hsing YI two man form. Most timid students that I had , after learing this form mindset have become combative. They timid attitude was no more.

Anyway this is a example of how I would teach and some methods of what I teach.

Peace All, practice and live long.

:cool:

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cool reply

Just A Man)what do you think ?

I think you have a good teaching method. Good reply. As everybody teaching method reply was practical and good information about their own personal knowledge.

peace, :cool:

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I also think you have a good regimen, theblacktaoist, but my question is why do you go off in different directions so early in the training?

I ask this question not because I think it’s wrong, but because my sifu and I practice only one style and have enough trouble mastering just THAT.

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The friend who wants to learn chi kung gets his first lesson in standing still, with emphasis on correct structural posture.That’s it for him, until he returns with a demonstratable ability to stand still ‘holding’ the structure for 3 minutes. The second lesson involves me deliberately rearranging his posture to an ‘incorrect alignnment’. He must readjust it to the correct form and hold it still.Then he goes away, not to come back till he can stand still for six minutes. IF he returns, we go on.
The friend who wants to learn ‘internal fighting’ is asked to throw a punch of any variety from any position. I knock him down hard. The ground is also hard. I then explain that if he wants to learn ‘fighting’ he must be okay with more than a little pain. If he says he is (he will) we continue along those same lines for the first class. He fights with what he knows and I counter with internal style techniques that tend to knock him down. If he returns for another lesson we begin some instruction in form, structural alignment, and more fighting.
I don’t talk much at all about ‘chi’ with a beginner, because it makes one talk too much.
Peace.