To all you anatomists, here's something to think about.

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
1

While in anatomy class, we learned about Erb’s Palsy. This is when the ventral rami of cervical nerve 5 and 6 are cut. This causes loss of inervation to many muscles of the arm and also loss of skin sensation to certain parts.

This usually happens as a result of the head being pulled apart from the shoulder, kinda like tilting your head sideways. As in when falling off a bike and landing on the side of your head and shoulder.

This lead me to think about the “Pi” of Hsing I, where and Pi palm is striking head and the other hand is jerking the hand the opposite direction. The opponent would end up in the same position of over tilting the head. Now, my question. Has any sifu ever told you about the damage that the Pi can do? Was my guess even close to what they’ve said?

Mindlessness is the enemy…

2

What’s your point? Any fist can do all sorts of damage. The first punch in the Sparrow Hawk grabs, twists then pulls and punches the genitals. Heng Quan could break your jaw … or your nose, etc. Xingyi is a highly effective martial art, not health excercises. I don’t advocate fighting unless threatened or you don’t have any choice but to defend yourself, then the gloves are off and the injuries are the other guy’s problem.

3

Chill, dude.

David, maybe you’re reading my post wrong. I was simply asking if anyone has heard or read from their sifu the result of a pi. I want to compare that to what I learned about Erb’s Palsy. All I’m interested is making a connection between what I’m learning in anatomy class and the martial arts.

Mindlessness is the enemy…

4

Hi David! It’s been a while. By the way, your website is awesome. Even better than I remember.

Chyisan,
Don’t take it personally. There are a lot of boards on the 'net where the people are cold or else downright mean. I could list a bunch of them. So could David, I’m sure. This board is warm and inviting compared to a lot of them. Anyway, he didn’t mean it like that.

Anyway, we do something similar in Taiji with Rollback. One hand on the wrist, and the other sort of “thumps” down onto the upper forearm just below the elbow. The opponent’s head snaps backward and a bit to the side because the arm is yanked downward so hard. I was told that this kinks the brainstem causing KO. But I was never told about any diseases resulting from such a pull. I guess there would be though.

“To enter is to be born, to retreat is to die.”
-An Old Taijiquan Saying

5

Hi chyisan,

I’m not a XingYi stylist myself, more of a Bagua guy, but I would venture to say no…the folks who put XingYi together didn’t have access to either the anatomy or the physiology knowledge we have today. They just knew what the empirical results were. Ya whack a guy here and he goes down better than when ya whack him over there. Plus, the Chinese tended to have a more holistic view of the human body. The mechanistic view which gave rise to our exploration of specific neural pathways and such, didn’t have an influence on Chinese culture until comparatively very recently

6

The most devastating effect from Pi would be brain stem injury from the head moving against it’s natural range of movement. The most likely effect though is a dislocated shoulder, a broken jaw and a bit of whiplash which, let’s face it, is more than enough to put anyone down so they’re not getting up.

“Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice”
Lao Tzu

7

Sorry if I came across harsh, I didn’t mean too. (thanks for the save Sam :cool:) Now that I reread the post, it seems that way. My apologies! I run my own board and I know how things can get.

Anyways, I’d have to agree with Chris, I doubt the masters analyzed anatomy other than which meridian points were best for striking or healing. Again, any of the movements/energies in xingyi could probably cause the result you speak off. Too many factors come into play though, the angle you hit him at, your speed, is he coming at you or pulling back, how hard did you hit… it’s very dangerous every way around.

8

Pek/Pi Chuan/Chui …and innervation

Howdy, y’all. :o)

>While in anatomy class, we learned about Erb’s Palsy. This is when the ventral rami of cervical nerve 5 and 6 are cut. This causes loss of inervation to many muscles of the arm and also loss of skin sensation to certain parts.<

True enough. I've incurred damage to c-4 through t-1, and I'm still in the process of recuperating after 15 months. The loss of innervation directly translates to loss of strength/control over the extremities. It's taken me this long to be able to become functionally left handed. Rough. Small motor skills are almost nil, and the ability to control any major muscular actions have/are slowly coming back. Sensation in the back of the fore arm/wrist is also slow to regenerate.

>This usually happens as a result of the head being pulled apart from the shoulder, kinda like tilting your head sideways. As in when falling off a bike and landing on the side of your head and shoulder.<

 Yes. However the angle is specific in this type of injury. The head would have to strike at an angle that a flat surface would not allow. Even with the shoulder providing a fulcrum in which to stretch said nerves.

>This lead me to think about the “Pi” of Hsing I, where and Pi palm is striking head and the other hand is jerking the hand the opposite direction. The opponent would end up in the same position of over tilting the head. Now, my question…<

 Not necessarily. The angle has to be fairly precise, and pi/pek, as you've described it, is a frontal strike. The grab/block/strike wouldn't obviate the proper angle for the result we're discussing.

>Has any sifu ever told you about the damage that the Pi can do? Was my guess even close to what they’ve said?<

 As a matter of fact, my sifu described the amount of damage that pi/pek can cause, and on what parts of the body. From total crushing of the facial structure to tearing the arm from the socket. Pi/pek is a frontal assault, and the damage you're speaking of has a direct link to a rear strike. Still, amazingly painful, and incredibly long,in the healing process.

You have to remember that hsing-i is a battlefield art, and destruction of whatever is in front of you is the primary goal.

Best regards,

Drake Sansone

(swmngdragn@home.
com)
“Train, or go
to hell” Terry
W.
http://www.liuh
opafa.com/ˇ

9

Thanks guys

Hey thanks guys, for your replies. It’s good to be back on the board after months. I’ll be looking forward to many intellegent discussions.

Mindlessness is the enemy…

10

Force to the head.

There are scientists in Schweiz that have
done research on victims in car accidents.
They found that the victims were more often
to get serious brain injuries from severe
concussions when their car was smashed from
the side rather than from the front or behind.

Although you are more likely to catch a
whiplash injure from being hit from behind
or the front, there is a higher risk of KO
and brain injuries when the force is applied
from the sides. I’ve read about statistics
showing that there are more KO in western
boxing related to hooks than straight punches.

I’m no expert at this, maybe someone has
additional information on this subject?

Regards,
Wai

11

Pi Chuan

I think that we all can agree that Pi Chuan is a very very very good thing to study. I deep understanding of Pi Chuan will carry over into just about any other martial art and application, being Chinna, throwing, striking, kicking or moving. It is one of my five favorite techniques.
Pi Chuan was practiced in the past as a strike that came in an arc from above the head with the hand straight. The original basic idea was to be able to strike someone once on the forhead and sever the spinal cord at the neck. One strike and it is over. The problem as I understand it is that the arcing strike is a little unsettling to the chi of the person utilizing the technique. Personally I practice both ways.

Peace

yi beng, kan xue

12

Chyisan:
Interesting subject, nerve trauma affecting limbs rather than brain. I hope to hear more on this from any doctors/therapists on the board.

Drake:
Good luck with your healing and thanks for the excellent analysis.

Wai:
The side impact you refer to causes the two hemispheres of the brain to stretch apart and snap back at each other. This injury has the potential to lessen and even eliminate correspondence between hemispheres. Since this discovery, everything from coma to alzheimer’s is being researched in this area of trauma, the “shen valley”.

“Waiting is bad.” - Musashi

13

The people who put Hsing I together

were just not right in the head. Hsing I Boxers do some just downright NASTY stuff to people.

Mix Hsing I jing with Chin Na and what do you get? Injuries that make physical therapists scream in their sleep. I study the kinematics of trauma quite extensively and one of the specific things that Internal Boxers do very well is cause concussions. The brain is floating in a fluid bath…much like a pickle in a jar. Slide the jar real quick, pickle bounces off the jar. Same with your brain. When an Internal stylist fa jings on some poor dude, or does that whipping energy that causes the head to involuntarily snap back, you’re causing a concussion. Do it forcefully enough, you can shred the small vessels at the base of the brain. This will kill you.

it’s all great stuff. I do have one thing I’d like to disagree with though…the brain IS divided in 1/2…but it isn’t SEPERATE. The Corpus Collosum binds the L and R hemispheres together quite sturdily. it’s not like they flap around, butterfly style.

14

Hey Taoboxer…

“I do have one thing I’d like to disagree with though…the brain IS divided in 1/2…but it isn’t SEPERATE. The Corpus Collosum binds the L and R hemispheres together quite sturdily. it’s not like they flap around, butterfly style.”

Actually, you’re not disagreeing, but saying it much better! The binding structure between the hemispheres is what I have gathered (from science zines and TV stuff) that when stretched causes knock out, dementia, and coma, as from a side impact injury. The studies have not indicated that a large separation needs to take place (as the brain is indeed well-encapuslated and cushioned) so perhaps this is why it is a relatively recent discovery. Indications are that the stretching of the connective tissue plays a greater factor in trauma and long term prognosis than the actual bruising of the side of the brain from impact.

“Waiting is bad.” - Musashi