time between forms

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

From my own experience…

I always find things to work on in SLT and in all the forms.This is an evolving thing,never completed.Sometimes ,it amazes me how some little detail,so meaningless before could becomes so important or meaningfull after months or years of practice.You truely understand something only when you are ready!..But,you have to be able to do that “homework” for that to happen.Being “ready” as some places implies would simply mean having the skill before actually learning the material!

22

A lot of you talk about "mastering’ this or that in wing chun. i personaly don’t believe anyone can master anything in wing chun. you can ALWAYS refine your wing chun further and futher, therefor never “mastering” anything. i think if anyone calls someone a “master,” they are just trying to be respectful. i think the term master implies there is a ceiling on there art and they cant get any better because they have “mastered” it.

23

In our organisation learning the forms is closely aligned to the grading system. You are looking at a couple of months working on stance, punching, stepping, basic hands before starting SLT. Most would get to CK in 15-18 months. BJ after about three years.

The dummy, knives and pole are taught separately, usually in seminar format, with regular revision in class. For higher gradings you are expected to know and be competent with the material with those aspects.

With fairly large classes and a number of schools in different Australian capital cities, some sort of formal structure is essential to ensure that standards and consistency are maintained, and that all students are treated fairly.

We could stay a small group that trains in someone’s garage or a park, but that’s not everyone’s view of a successful organisation. Gradings are not a money issue for us as we charge no grading fees, it’s more a means of setting challenging but achievable goals for students and ensuring their practice is well-rounded.

My first instructor taught me all the forms (10) up to his system’s instructor level (usually taking about 5 years) in about fifteen months. This was because he knew I was in town for a limited time, most of our training was one on one, and according to him I had an unusually good aptitude for forms due to my attention to detail from years of training and competition in Olympic Gymnastics. Q - does “an aptitude for forms” translate into “an aptitude for fighting”?

S.Teebas, good post, I agree with nearly all of it. However, is it possible that SOME schools which regiment their schedule for teaching forms are not so much “more commercialised”, but perhaps “more organised” or “more professional”?

I fully agree with what you say about concealing knowledge or making it sound more mystical and esoteric than it actually is. That, and the glib epigrams that too many use in place of patient and detailed explanations (in some cases to obfuscate their lack of real knowledge), are probably my pet hates about CMA.

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Hi Atleastimnotyou,

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
A lot of you talk about "mastering’ this or that in wing chun. i personaly don’t believe anyone can master anything in wing chun. you can ALWAYS refine your wing chun further and futher, therefor never “mastering” anything. i think if anyone calls someone a “master,” they are just trying to be respectful. i think the term master implies there is a ceiling on there art and they cant get any better because they have “mastered” it.
When I spoke of “mastery,” I was referring to it in a didactical sense as spoken in modern pedagogical parlance, and not in a literal sense. In mastery learning, the information is presented and tested before the student can advance to the next lesson.

Earlier when I spoke of teaching the three empty hand sets, I meant that I’d like to see it done within the first year of beginning Wing Chun.

There are other signs to look for when a student is ready for the wooden dummy, and more before the pole is taught, for instance development of “heavy hands” without the resistance training worked on in the pole set.

I see no benefit to a student in denying him information when he or she is ready to understand it.

Regards,

25

I believe the teacher will know when one of his students is ready to learn something else. They look to see if the student is in position, relaxed, and if he is precise with his energy. I believe Ken would teach the same way.

I hope no one out there tells the teacher what he wants to learn. That is just rude and out of line.

Corey

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Time Between Forms

Hi Corey,

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
I believe the teacher will know when one of his students is ready to learn something else. They look to see if the student is in position, relaxed, and if he is precise with his energy. I believe Ken would teach the same way.

Yes. If Ken is the teacher in question, then yes, he knows. He is difficult to characterize as anything other than a Wing Chun purist as a teacher. He is satisfied with nothing short of perfection in his students. And often this is expressed in working his students on the fundamentals religiously.

Since I am not a teacher, not at Ken’s level, and not speaking for him, I’m expressing the opinion that there might (emphasized: “might”) be a more lenient approach that coddles students’ weak attention spans and lack of patience, and that this would not be all bad. :slight_smile: A teacher might well say, “Hey, we need the dues.”

I would never deem to tell my sifu Ben Der what it is he should be teaching me and I progress as he decides I can. But, remember, both Ben and Ken allow endless questions. :slight_smile: No question is too trivial or repeated too often for them to dismiss it, so a real prodigy (not me) would be able to shine under their tutelage.

Regards,

27

Anerlich

However, is it possible that SOME schools which regiment their schedule for teaching forms are not so much “more commercialised”, but perhaps “more organised” or “more professional”?

Well I think if the luxury of customised tuition is available I believe it’s still the best approach IMHO. But if the organisation is large then this is definitely not possible. In this case I agree that a curriculum would be the best approach for overall development based on the average progression of most students.

It’s probably also going to come down to what a student feels comfortable with. Some might feel more comfortable with a checklist of things…others may prefer something differently.

28

Then again

I believe some would say, “just change the tape!” LOL

29

No question is too trivial or repeated too often for them to dismiss it

My first teacher, David Crook, was pretty patient with this too. However, many “repeat offenders” ended up playing prominent roles in his spectacular and painful “nerve points demonstrations”
:stuck_out_tongue:

30

Do not fear the man who practiced 1000 kicks 1 time.

Instead…

Fear the man who practiced 1 kick 1000 times.

31

Forms

Mr. Gordon:

In the old days, the forms (all 3) could be taught in a single day. But understanding and refinement of the forms took a lot work and the guidance of your teacher’s decision to transmit the theories behind every movement.

Many modern students of wing chun are too quick to jump to advance without considering their mastery of the basics. The first form is very enlightening and every time I played it. I have gained something from it. I know that my understanding of sil lum tao is still growing and it is more complex than it looks.

Mr. Gordon, within 5 years you should learn all the forms that if you have a good teacher and are hard working. You can’t give a definite time limit to your growth and the art.

Bao

32

Let’s try an experiment. Take someone(with NO martial arts training) and teach them the Wooden Dummy first. Then let’s see what happens.

33

Your Science Experiment

Originally posted by Dragonhand
Let’s try an experiment. Take someone(with NO martial arts training) and teach them the Wooden Dummy first. Then let’s see what happens.
And better yet, we could start with a scientific approach about what will happen. What would your hypothesis be?

34

Re: Your Science Experiment

Originally posted by Dragonhand
Let’s try an experiment. Take someone(with NO martial arts training) and teach them the Wooden Dummy first. Then let’s see what happens.

Originally posted by John Weiland
And better yet, we could start with a scientific approach about what will happen. What would your hypothesis be?

If you teach someone(with NO martial arts training) the Wooden Dummy first before anything else, he will most probably beat his arms against the dummy’s arms in order to make his arms as hard as the dummy’s.

35

This is great. If one was to TEACH the Wooden Man, they would have to teach it correctly , wouldn’t you say? With that in mind let’s continue with this idea shall we. Let’s step out of the box and think beyond the pages. Thanks for the intelligent replys.

36

I think I would have to go with the crowd that says it should be up to your instructor. He can tell how far along you are and can tell if you are ready to move ahead, and you should trust that. Hopefully, your instructor has a good program set up to get most people moving at roughly the same pace but regardless, sometimes you arent ready to move ahead, and sometimes you shouldnt have to wait…

37

huh?

Originally posted by red5angel
I think I would have to go with the crowd that says it should be up to your instructor. He can tell how far along you are and can tell if you are ready to move ahead, and you should trust that.

Really?? :eek:

I thought you’re long-standing position was that most instructors “out there” are teaching bogus variants of Wing Chun…

Did your week off help you or have the meds kicked in?

38

How much time between forms…?

I believe that a vast majority of WC people would agree that the WC system will take a lifetime (or many lifetimes) to perfect.

The quetion of how much time is really needed in each WC step within the WC system is a valid question. IMHO, there has been far too much padding, stretching, filling, expanding, adding, and over engineering of the WC system. Bloated curriculum often ends in student confusion and frustration. To compound the problem, poor teaching methods/habits and the desire for money/power have turned WC (many other martial arts) into a bad nightmare. I sometimes wonder if some teachers are passing on the art or trying to built cults.

I am always happy to see a student progress and become competent with each form and the accompanying San Sau/Chi Sau. Hence, it is my believe that an average student practicing three times a week should should be competent in the WC (open hand) system within two years. TWO YEARS… !

Siu Lim Tao in the first three months

Chum Kiu in add six more months

Mook Yan Jong add nine more months

Biu Jee add three more months

Lok Dim Poon Kwan = four to six months

Student teaching = minimum one year but two or more is best!

12 sections of Bat Cham Do = one year

After the first two years, the practitioner can look at refinement and polishing the mind, strategies, tactics, and WC techniques.

Regards to all… John Di Virgilio

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Hi John (D): Good to see you posting.
Some comments on your post. I agree that wing chun is often rationed out too slowly for some of the reasons that you mention. There is a lot of imitation of the doling out in other ma systems as well. BUT- in two years it is entirely possible to teach the hand forms- but proficient use of them-is likely to take somewhat longer. I have yet to see a two year person use the biu jee motions efficiently, often it becomes the Bruce Lee eye poke or something like that… muscled and stiff. I teach anyone who wants to learn any sequence. I think that a dedicated practitioner can use wing chun effectively in 18 months… but for
competence in all of the hand forms- I would double your specified years— still well under many systems. But learning things(independent of cult, money and sashes) well can take a long time. BTW, I finally got to see the
first HK wing chun gathering tape…apparently edited quite a bit-
compared to what I heard actually went on. Honest injun- IMO- the pole and bot jam do demos were disappointing. I recognized many folks but did not recognize others- par for the course.
Hope you are well, regards, Joy

40

Hi Joy,

I agree with you that it will take a lifetime to refine the many parts of WC, but there is very little reason for the hand forms to be taught so very slowly. My curriculum hinges on balancing applied “San Sau” techniques with the forms. I have no problems with the two year range of instruction. I also believe that a San Sau only method can be taught faster - less than a year!

The 1999 VTAA conference demonstrations were edited to death. The “DO” demonstrate was full of nonsense. IMO, the best (and most knowledgable) “Broadsword” WC man sat quitely in his chair within the audience.

Regards,
John D.