# Thinking out Loud **URL:** \ **Category:** Wing Chun\ **Created:** [August 14, 2005, 12:22pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241 "2005-08-14T12:22:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KPM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c57346/32.png) [@KPM](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/KPM)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2005, 12:22pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/1 "2005-08-14T12:22:17Z")
Hey Guys! Many many years ago I used to attend and compete in some of the open point-sparring tournaments. It always disappointed me that you could watch the Blackbelt forms competition at the beginning of the day and see all kinds of cool and interesting styles represented. But then when you put them in a ring to spar…everyone looked the same! Gone where the signature moves and techniques of the style that were shown in the forms competition. You couldn’t tell TKD from Karate from Kung Fu. And this was consistent for the 3 yrs or so that I went to the tournaments. Mainland China…the home of traditional Kung Fu…in recent years has kindled an interest in sparring competitions. They call it San Da. I’ve seen a few of the bouts that people have posted. Again…you typically can’t tell Hsing I from Northern Shaolin from Praying Mantis etc. It always looks like some form of kickboxing. Various WCK people have posted sparring clips either here or on their websites. Again, you seldom if ever see actual classical WCK being used. Its makes me wonder when you see people sparring in an obvious WCK school with banners and a Mook Jong in the background but the sparring again looks like some form of kickboxing. There was even an old clip posted of supposedly “traditional” Kung Fu masters sparring in a ring and you couldn’t tell what style they were supposed to be doing. No signature moves. No stylistic moves that they had been years cultivating in their various forms. It didn’t even look like good kickboxing. It looked like schoolyard slap boxing! When I’ve seen some good WCK people really mixing it up in Chi Sau, a large percentage of time their structure goes out the window. I know, I know…some will say that you learn the structure, it becomes internalized, and then you can discard it. I’m not so sure of that. I have Alan Orr’s series of videos on “body structure sparring”, which is an excellent set of vids. He is certainly working from a WCK base, but guess what…his result still looks like a form of WCK kickboxing and not “classical” WCK. I’ve noticed in my own sparring sessions that it is hard to maintain a WCK structure and approach. It seems to naturally degenerate (maybe not the right word) into a kickboxing-type bout. So I can’t fault those that show sparring clips that don’t look much like WCK. So what am I getting at here? First of all, it seems that when you put big boxing gloves on people, everything looks like boxing! But I’ve also been thinking recently that maybe there is a more natural way to move and fight. When you put people in a sparring situation, the evidence I have seen (though admittedly limited) suggests that people are going to naturally resort to some kind of kickboxing structure when they are put under pressure. So rather than working so very hard to develop a certain system …be it WCK or something else…and make it work in sparring/fighting, maybe it would be better to “reverse engineer” by taking natural reactions in sparring situations and build on them. I’m thinking of Mannie’s Hakarac Boxing, and Victor’s approach to things. Maybe they are onto something. Maybe the way to “evolve” is to take a boxing base or structure and meld it with WCK hands. Panantukan is “filipino boxing” that some say came about when Johnny LaCoste took his knowledge of traditional Kali hand techniques and melded it onto a boxing structure. Maybe what Victor and some others have been working toward is a “WCK boxing”…a modern-day spin off of traditional WCK. And this would seem more appropriate for those that like to put on the gear and really “mix it up.” Am I rambling now? 🙂 What do you guys think? Keith P.S. Just got back from Border’s Bookstore after writing this post earlier today. Was browsing thru the martial arts book section and came across one called “The Sabaki Method.” It showed all kinds of technique and sparring strategy from “Enshin” Karate. This appears to be a “modernized” version of classical Karate. Guess what…? Rather than powering from a low stance with a locked rear knee as in classical karate, they are using much more of a boxing base and foundation. Rather than being very upright with shoulders back and throwing punches from the waist, they have shoulders rolled forward with chin tucked in and throw from the shoulder. In short, it looked like Karate melded onto a boxing base or structure. Just further food for thought. ---
**Author:** ![jyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5a626/32.png) [@jyu](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/jyu)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/2 "2005-08-14T16:26:26Z")
Hey man, I totally agree with what you wrote. But I would look at things from a different perspective. I think it is normal why people from all style fighting the same is because that is natural fighting. Instead I look at martial arts as a blueprint of refining one’s natural fighting ability, and not making them into a cat, dragon, crane, robots. etc etc. That way, I feel one is honest to themselve and training serves purpose and not just to perform your perfect technqiue because sifu says it will work 100%. But maybe a blend of boxing with wck might bring something interesting out. ---
**Author:** ![anerlich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@anerlich](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/anerlich)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/3 "2005-08-15T00:05:14Z")
Both posts above make sense. To my mind, there are many similarities between TWC and Jack Dempsey’s boxing style, as detailed in “Championship Fighting”. Most kickboxing rules prevent stomp and side kicks to the knees, etc., IMO for good reason. Groin kicks are also proscribed for obvious reasons. You’re left with few other effective options other than roundhouse kicks for the legs. Flashy kicking and turning your back is as ill advised on the ring as it is on the street, so you’re going to stick with basic movements which work, though some skilled or gifted athletes can break those guidelines on occasion. Put gloves on of sufficient padding to be of any value in full contact kickboxing, most of your WC hand techs other than punches are gone anyway. Most of the chi sao attributes rely on creating and exploiting the small gaps that disappear when you both wear pillows on your hands, Plus you can’t grab, though you can use larp sao, etc. as parries to some extent. If you’ve got big heavy pillows on your hands, it makes defensive sense to keep them closer to your head for protection rather than fatigue your shoulders by holding them out in a more extended WC guard. Other than Genki Sudo, who is a special case and not a KF stylist anyway, I’ve yet to see an effective full contact victory in kickboxing or MMA by a stylist deviating far from a kickboxing or MT structure. This includes my instructor and successful fighters from my own academy. ---
**Author:** ![Edmund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/439d5e/32.png) [@Edmund](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Edmund)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/4 "2005-08-15T03:41:47Z")
Good thoughts Keith. A couple of my own to add: 1. A lot of the “signature moves” in traditional arts (inc. WC) are just plain unrealistic. They aren’t going to be seen in decent sparring because they are not much use in application. So traditional arts in application were never meant to look like a form. There’s no point in trying to stick to the classical look of forms while sparring. That is just for training or looking good. The stuff that is useful is simple techniques like plain punches and kicks, simple defences. 2. Having said that, there are a lot of different ways to apply simple techniques. Different styles will have different philosophies on techniques and strategies. To say that it is all kickboxing isn’t saying much because there’s a lot of different approaches to kickboxing. It’s a fairly inclusive sport due to the rules (esp. Muay Thai which allows some clinching, elbowing and kneeing). A keen eye can pick that some kickboxers have a TKD style in their background for instance. Or that some have a kyokushin background. Or they’ve done a lot of boxing. Everyone doesn’t look the same once you look deeper into what they are doing. 3. There’s still a lot of ways to skin a cat even though it all looks similar. But if WC people aren’t even looking at sparring as a useful training method or test of skills, then it’s all a moot point. There are some MA tournaments that ARE useless due to the rules making it more a fun sport than a fight. Basing your training off succeeding in those sorts of sports makes you just as useless in a real fight as doing no sparring at all. > [@KPM](#): > > Mainland China…the home of traditional Kung Fu…in recent years has kindled an interest in sparring competitions. They call it San Da. I’ve seen a few of the bouts that people have posted. Again…you typically can’t tell Hsing I from Northern Shaolin from Praying Mantis etc. It always looks like some form of kickboxing. > > Various WCK people have posted sparring clips either here or on their websites. Again, you seldom if ever see actual classical WCK being used. Its makes me wonder when you see people sparring in an obvious WCK school with banners and a Mook Jong in the background but the sparring again looks like some form of kickboxing. ---
**Author:** ![YongChun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/9fc348/32.png) [@YongChun](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/YongChun)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 7:14am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/5 "2005-08-15T07:14:48Z")
Everything looks like kickboxing If you replace the word kickboxing with boxing then the sentence: everything looks like boxing doesn’t do justice to the art of boxing. The little details might not be noticeable to the average guy on the street but there is a world of difference between the various boxers like Mohammed Ali, Joe Frazer, George Foreman, Sugar Ray Leonard, Joe Lewis etc. A second point is when you watch a Judo guy against a beginner you see all the techniques and beautiful throws. When you see two equally skilled people then Judo looks very ugly. The same might be true of two evely matched teams in anything? Against a beginner I can use every Wing Chun technique and have beautiful movie style form. Against Emin Boztepe, Kenneth Chung, Mike Tyson, and some of the UFC champs, I wouldn’t be able to get much of anything working. My side would look ugly but their side might look good. I would have to throw out nearly everything and keep to the simplest of simple stuff. I noticed that good boxers can fight with a fair amount of style. It doesn’t look like the typical tough man competitions where all the local bikers partake. So I think some of the look of a fight depends on skill level and after that relative skill level. ---
**Author:** ![KPM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c57346/32.png) [@KPM](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/KPM)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 9:59am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/6 "2005-08-15T09:59:38Z")
Hey Edmund! 1. A lot of the “signature moves” in traditional arts (inc. WC) are just plain unrealistic. They aren’t going to be seen in decent sparring because they are not much use in application. So traditional arts in application were never meant to look like a form. There’s no point in trying to stick to the classical look of forms while sparring. —Then why practice them? Why spend years refining movements that seldom if ever show up in sparring or in a real fight? 1. Having said that, there are a lot of different ways to apply simple techniques. Different styles will have different philosophies on techniques and strategies. To say that it is all kickboxing isn’t saying much because there’s a lot of different approaches to kickboxing. It’s a fairly inclusive sport due to the rules (esp. Muay Thai which allows some clinching, elbowing and kneeing). A keen eye can pick that some kickboxers have a TKD style in their background for instance. Or that some have a kyokushin background. Or they’ve done a lot of boxing. Everyone doesn’t look the same once you look deeper into what they are doing. —Sorry. To clarify, that’s not what I meant. When I say everything looks like a form of boxing or kickboxing I’m referring to the basic structure and power base. I realize there are distinct differences between Muay Thai and American kickboxing, between George Foreman and Muhammed Ali, etc. But they still use a common basic biomechanic. They still generate power in very similar ways and throw punches in very similar ways. 1. There’s still a lot of ways to skin a cat even though it all looks similar. But if WC people aren’t even looking at sparring as a useful training method or test of skills, then it’s all a moot point. There are some MA tournaments that ARE useless due to the rules making it more a fun sport than a fight. Basing your training off succeeding in those sorts of sports makes you just as useless in a real fight as doing no sparring at all. —That’s true. Even if you are training to spar in competitions with specific rules and conditions, if you want to have a true martial art and not just a martial sport you have to be honest enough to make your training as realistic and as applicable as possible when in the training hall. —As far as Ray’s point about skill levels dictating what can be applied…this is very true as well. But are we training to fight a scrub, or to fight someone that would be a challenge? Do we train for the lowest common denominator, or for the fight of our lives? ----What Andrew says about gloves is also true. Like I said in the original post…you put big boxing gloves on people and everything looks like boxing! That may be part of the problem. That’s why I prefer to use headgear and the light fingerless gloves popular in MMA circles. So one solution to this for those that spar would be to get rid of the boxing gloves. Years back when San Da started to become popular in China they were using headgear and light gloves. Back then you seemed to see more actual kung fu technique. Now it seems they have gone to the pattern in the west and are using boxing gloves instead. So now what they do looks more and more like boxing. Go figure! Keith ---
**Author:** ![Ultimatewingchun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Ultimatewingchun](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Ultimatewingchun)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/7 "2005-08-15T17:15:55Z")
“So rather than working so very hard to develop a certain system …be it WCK or something else…and make it work in sparring/fighting, maybe it would be better to “reverse engineer” by taking natural reactions in sparring situations and build on them. I’m thinking of Mannie’s Hakarac Boxing, and Victor’s approach to things. Maybe they are onto something. Maybe the way to “evolve” is to take a boxing base or structure and meld it with WCK hands. Panantukan is “filipino boxing” that some say came about when Johnny LaCoste took his knowledge of traditional Kali hand techniques and melded it onto a boxing structure. Maybe what Victor and some others have been working toward is a “WCK boxing”…a modern-day spin off of traditional WCK. And this would seem more appropriate for those that like to put on the gear and really “mix it up.” Am I rambling now? What do you guys think?” (KPM) \*\*\*WELL I THINK that you’re onto something also, Keith. 🙂 I look upon the possibility of using “signature” wing chun moves only in relation to the “delivery system” that applies within the world of today. Hence I advocate the use of boxing hands, a more mobile boxing-like/ JKD-like footwork, broken rhythm, feints, and combinations that include high percentage low kicking moves as a means of getting to the “place” where a lop da, pak da, etc. can work against a good mobile fighter. ---
**Author:** ![lawrenceofidaho](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/lawrenceofidaho/32/478_2.png) [@lawrenceofidaho](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/lawrenceofidaho)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/8 "2005-08-15T17:46:00Z")
> [@Edmund](#): > > 1. A lot of the “signature moves” in traditional arts (inc. WC) are just plain unrealistic. They aren’t going to be seen in decent sparring because they are not much use in application. So traditional arts in application were never meant to look like a form. There’s no point in trying to stick to the classical look of forms while sparring. Excellent points! > [@KPM](#): > > —Then why practice them? Why spend years refining movements that seldom if ever show up in sparring or in a real fight? This is a key question that every martial artist should think about… After I am able to stay proficient at the “high percentage” (functional) techniques in Wing Chun, why should I spend the rest of my training time working on “low percentage” wing chun techniques (that are not unlikely to ever be used in fighting), when I could be working on the high percentage techniques of; Escrima, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, or Wrestling? I want to make the most intelligent use of the time I have available for training, and this seems to be an important consideraton. -Lawrence p.s.- Great posts by everyone on this thread so far. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Edmund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/439d5e/32.png) [@Edmund](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Edmund)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 3:17am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/9 "2005-08-16T03:17:49Z")
Hi Keith > [@KPM](#): > > 1. A lot of the “signature moves” in traditional arts (inc. WC) are just plain unrealistic. They aren’t going to be seen in decent sparring because they are not much use in application. So traditional arts in application were never meant to look like a form. There’s no point in trying to stick to the classical look of forms while sparring. > > —Then why practice them? Why spend years refining movements that seldom if ever show up in sparring or in a real fight? IMO, some are just for training. By doing them, you can become a better, fitter athlete. Some are just for very specific applications that seldom show up and it’s only in the form to add something else to the choreography. Some are just antiquated. > —Sorry. To clarify, that’s not what I meant. When I say everything looks like a form of boxing or kickboxing I’m referring to the basic structure and power base. I realize there are distinct differences between Muay Thai and American kickboxing, between George Foreman and Muhammed Ali, etc. But they still use a common basic biomechanic. They still generate power in very similar ways and throw punches in very similar ways. I see. Well the similarities that they would share are because they are all human and there are only so many ways to generate power IN A FIGHT. Because they have to be fairly mobile and they have to strike, they stand the best way to do that. I still see a lot of variations. > —As far as Ray’s point about skill levels dictating what can be applied…this is very true as well. But are we training to fight a scrub, or to fight someone that would be a challenge? Do we train for the lowest common denominator, or for the fight of our lives? I think we should handle both scenarios with the same techniques but be less successful against the more skilled person. You COULD beat a complete scrub with a classical WC look and feel but it is not a great argument for practicing it that way. I could probably run backwards and out-sprint a toddler. So what? There should still be some practical reasons for applying the art a particular way. > ----What Andrew says about gloves is also true. Like I said in the original post…you put big boxing gloves on people and everything looks like boxing! That may be part of the problem. That’s why I prefer to use headgear and the light fingerless gloves popular in MMA circles. So one solution to this for those that spar would be to get rid of the boxing gloves. True that. ---
**Author:** ![lawrenceofidaho](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/lawrenceofidaho/32/478_2.png) [@lawrenceofidaho](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/lawrenceofidaho)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 3:30am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/10 "2005-08-16T03:30:38Z")
> [@Edmund](#): > > You COULD beat a complete scrub with a classical WC look and feel but it is not a great argument for practicing it that way. I could probably run backwards and out-sprint a toddler. So what? LOL!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fajing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/919ad9/32.png) [@Fajing](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Fajing)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:03am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/11 "2005-08-16T04:03:04Z")
“I could probably run backwards and out-sprint a toddler. So what?” Double LOL!!! That’s some funny sh\*t! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![AndrewS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@AndrewS](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/AndrewS)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 5:42am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/12 "2005-08-16T05:42:34Z")
Most of what people think of as ‘Wing Chun’ is delusional choreography vaguely remembering a few fights several generations of teachers ago. This is probably the start of people’s problems understanding why it ‘doesn’t look like they think it should’- ‘cos how they think it should look has little relation to the real thing. Ray makes an excellent point when he mentioned that no one looks good when people are evenly matched- see the last few rounds of the Thrilla in Manilla to see two men who could have clowned nearly anyone on the planet the day before looking like rockem’ sockem’ robots, running on pure heart. Contact sports enforce ‘reality’- motion under unstable conditions. As most Wing Chun practice occurs under stable rather than unstable conditions, it looks quite different from athletic motion. A corollary- practice of a skill under stable conditions will have little carryover to unstable conditions. Some stuff from pro fighters which I think is ‘good Wing Chun’ and close to our ideas- 1). Belfort vs. Silva- shutting down the kick with the hands, going straight in, keeping the pressure up with linked continuous attack. Whatever you may say about chain punching, however you argue mechanics, this is an argument for exploding into a beatdown when the opportunity presents. 2). Rickson vs. anyone- watch his prefighting posture. He exerts pressure from a distance, moves only as much as he needs to, is extremely balanced. 3). Randy Couture vs. Belfort #1- shuts down fast hands by sticking and neutralizing, then tieing up and offbalancing to stay safe while administering a beating. This is how you’re supposed to stick, as far as I can tell. Randy’s epitomized shutting someone down efficiently. 4). Don Frye- forget which fight back in the day- first guy I saw folding to drop the elbow when his hands got tied up. Press in one place, hit with another. Saw a Louiseau fight where he was popping these nice standing. There are other example- these are just some easy ones that pop up. At range you gotta move. Generally speaking, uprooting structure isn’t that mobile, so you’re a bit up at range. Hence, you gotta drop your power in when the range gets broken, both to get power, and to set your base. At range you want to be able to move fluidly in any direction, hit with any weapon, and set up so you have base from any angle. People who can do this look a certain way- but their abilities aren’t about the look. In tight- neck strong, one unit hips to head, with some play. Elbows down, weight back. This is what’s efficient in a clinch. It’s pure classic Wing Chun. Have decent base. Reinforce base with adduction. Feel where the other guy is going- be somewhere else, someplace uncomfortable for him. Change if what you’re trying doesn’t work. There are three centers of motion- him, you, or the middle. Control center. Always put pressure on the other guy- physically, mentally. Lawrence- ‘Low percentage techniques’- Other than tie sao and double punches, there’s very little I’d call low percentage, going through the empty hand forms. Some things need to be looked at from a slightly different angle, but personally, I think nearly every piece of each form is amenable to practical application in live drilling, followed by integration into sparring. You would probably be shocked at some of the technical points that have some actual use. A few things are pretty much just developmental. Figure what they develop, and why. Keith- Foreman and Ali develop power quite differently. Looking at boxing tape, you’ll see numerous methods of power development, based on personal preference and body type. Frazier and Tyson move a certain way, Ali moved another, Dempsey another, Joe Louis another still. Marciano has little to do with Lennox Lewis. Later, Andrew ---
**Author:** ![sihing](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sihing/32/521_2.png) [@sihing](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/sihing)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 6:09am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/13 "2005-08-16T06:09:13Z")
Good post..I agree with almost everything, except the weight back, but putting the pressure on the other guy and controlling the centers, good stuff.. ---
**Author:** ![KPM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c57346/32.png) [@KPM](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/KPM)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 10:05am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/14 "2005-08-16T10:05:03Z")
> [@AndrewS](#): > > Keith- Foreman and Ali develop power quite differently. Looking at boxing tape, you’ll see numerous methods of power development, based on personal preference and body type. Frazier and Tyson move a certain way, Ali moved another, Dempsey another, Joe Louis another still. Marciano has little to do with Lennox Lewis. > > Later, > > Andrew Good post Andrew! This last part though…again, as I tried to clarify before…I realize there are differences, but they still all come from a similar structure and power base. In your examples they are all still recognizable as boxers. If you saw Panantukan guys training you would say…“hey, they’re boxing!” And then you might start recognizing some of the differences that come from their Filipino influence. Some JKD guys are essentially doing boxing with some WCK hands used in close. If you saw them training at first glance you would probably also say…“hey, they’re boxing!” And then you might start to recognize some Pak Saus, Lop Saus, and trapping. But in neither case do they suddenly shift their biomechanic from boxing to classical Kali or classical WCK. They keep this general “boxing biomechanic” through-out. When I said I saw very little actual WCK in the sparring clips I’ve viewed, this is what I’m getting at…most look very much like a form of kickboxing (using a boxing biomechanic) with the occasional WCK hand technique inserted. They typically do not use the WCK biomechanic and structure that they spend so much time training in the forms and drills. So then why not train the forms and drills using this boxing biomechanic that seems to naturally want to show up in sparring/fighting? Again, just thinking out loud! 😉 Keith ---
**Author:** ![sihing](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sihing/32/521_2.png) [@sihing](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/sihing)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/15 "2005-08-16T16:03:40Z")
Keith, I can agree with you. When ever I watch some Martial Arts event, all the people competing from all the different styles look the same to me. You can have a Kempo guy vs a Northen Shaolin style and essentially they are all bouncing around and throughing out half a$$ed jabs. I’ve made this observation many times and have actually thought about the subject on occasion. We in our kwoon always have the WC structure within the sparring and drilling of our art. Regarding sparring we try not to have WC vs WC but have one of the participants kickbox or grapple vs WC. We have successfully in the past fought this way, and I did so myself when I was entering tournaments, even though when I was competing it was only in point tourney’s as this was the only things around to fight in. Basically the fight went like this, we line up, they try a few flimsy back fists and side kicks and then we run them out of the ring…It became quite the joke and that is why I stopped competing in them. The point is that the WC structure, at least the one I’ve learned as this is the only structure I know, works when it is understood and practiced correctly. James ---
**Author:** ![fa\_jing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@fa\_jing](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/fa_jing)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/16 "2005-08-16T17:32:05Z")
“So then why not train the forms and drills using this boxing biomechanic that seems to naturally want to show up in sparring/fighting? Again, just thinking out loud!” Well that’s an excellent idea, I think you should do that some of the time, but on the other hand, alot of the time when you are practicing the traditional way you are trying to influence yourself to reduce certain tendencies “and wingchun-ify” your fighting. Let me start with a real extreme example, the low horse stance. You’ll ideally and 99% of the time never fight that low, but if it trains you to sink, that’s great. Because the tendency when sparring or fighting is to stand straight up with the knees locked. Yes I think sitting in a lower stance than you would actually fight in, can be useful because it trains you against your natural tendancy. When we practice Wing Chun short punches, are we trying to develop 1 or 4-inch punches? No, we’re training so that our punches are shorter and crisper, with the elbows down somewhat, because the natural tendancy is to flare the elbows and use too much backswing. At the same time, I think Wing Chun can be overconfident and there needs to be a backup plan, like using head movement as well as one of the “saus.” Boxing is also a good framework to understand your Wing Chun with as well, for instance the pak sao is a parry, thinking of the front and rear hands as throwing “1-2s” etc. You have even more of a framework to draw upon if you think of your Wing Chun in MMA terms, common names for your throws like scoop, hip toss etc. BTW, AFAIK for whatever reason no-one has really used stomp kicks well with damaging effect in the UFC, though I’ve seen a few guys throw them. I think of course that the longer you train the traditional way, the more you will see this coming out in your free-sparring. But you need to maintain a continuum of free-sparring so you aren’t shocking yourself out of your good habits when you jump in. heck, I always had trouble with just “hands up, elbows down, eyes wide open” when under fire. It takes time to get to where you’re comfortable in the ring/whatever. One thing I was able to do for the most part is to utilize the basic wing chun steps, not all the ones you use in Chi sao and the wooden man but the basic marching steps, the half step and the exchange step, step left, step right and in some occasions the triangle step. Oh yeah, I recommend to anyone, no matter their training philosophy, to come up with some Wing Chun drills ( trapping hand drills for example ) that end with punch or punches to a focus mitt held by your partner. This way you get used to hitting something. ---
**Author:** ![lawrenceofidaho](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/lawrenceofidaho/32/478_2.png) [@lawrenceofidaho](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/lawrenceofidaho)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/17 "2005-08-16T18:08:38Z")
Nice post, Fa Jing. I want to get some shirts printed up that say; “Wing Chun-ify your fighting.” 😃 -Lawrence ---
**Author:** ![Ultimatewingchun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Ultimatewingchun](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Ultimatewingchun)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/18 "2005-08-16T21:34:44Z")
“Good post Andrew! This last part though…again, as I tried to clarify before…I realize there are differences, but they still all come from a similar structure and power base. In your examples they are all still recognizable as boxers. If you saw Panantukan guys training you would say…“hey, they’re boxing!” And then you might start recognizing some of the differences that come from their Filipino influence. Some JKD guys are essentially doing boxing with some WCK hands used in close. If you saw them training at first glance you would probably also say…“hey, they’re boxing!” And then you might start to recognize some Pak Saus, Lop Saus, and trapping. But in neither case do they suddenly shift their biomechanic from boxing to classical Kali or classical WCK. They keep this general “boxing biomechanic” through-out. When I said I saw very little actual WCK in the sparring clips I’ve viewed, this is what I’m getting at…most look very much like a form of kickboxing (using a boxing biomechanic) with the occasional WCK hand technique inserted. They typically do not use the WCK biomechanic and structure that they spend so much time training in the forms and drills. So then why not train the forms and drills using this boxing biomechanic that seems to naturally want to show up in sparring/fighting? Again, just thinking out loud!” :rolleyes: (KPM) \*\*\*\*\*\*I THINK we have 2 different scenarios here. The boxing biomechanics and structure apply most readily at a certain distance; and the scenarios/fights/matches that AndrewS alluded to (Belfort, Couture, Silva, etc.) were good examples of sticking close to the opponent and going forward to pressure with a more “classical” wing chun base - WHEN the opportunity arises to do just that (ie.- go forward from contact/fold into elbow strikes when pressured/redirect or avoid his force when in a clinch, etc.)…and if you think about it… what I just described is not conducive to boxing “rules” while fighting in the ring. So the elbows wouldn’t be coming in the Ali/Frazier fight, for example. So what I’m saying is that SPACE dictates what you will actually use during any and all encounters…and when the ability to move about is there - then a more boxing/kickboxing/JKD delivery system will probably work best to bridge the gap (and just plain bridge) against a good fighter if your game is to try and get in very close for your striking (and whatever else you might try to do at very close quarters)… Actually, AndrewS made this distinction when he wrote this: “At range you gotta move. Generally speaking, uprooting structure isn’t that mobile, so you’re a bit up at range. Hence, you gotta drop your power in when the range gets broken, both to get power, and to set your base. At range you want to be able to move fluidly in any direction, hit with any weapon, and set up so you have base from any angle. People who can do this look a certain way- but their abilities aren’t about the look.” \*\*\*SO BOTH Keith and AndrewS are correct - since they are essentially talking about 2 different ranges. But if you look carefully at Keith’s words that I quoted to start this post…the scenario he describes seem more like kickboxing matches than anything else because of the “rules” in play, ie.- if it were truly an NHB situation…then those same guys Keith mentioned WOULD “suddenly have to shift” their mechanics to a more solid (and therefore more wing chun like) base in order to fight efficiently once the gap has been bridged and the “space to move” has been eaten up or both fighters CHOSE to stay in close and pressure each other. At this point the only real “boxing” dynamics in play are the Marciano/Tyson/Frazier type of fight to a certain extent - along with whatever other short range weaponry one choses to use (ie. wing chun, Muay Thai elbows and knees, clinch to takedown and grapple, single or double leg shoots, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Edmund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/439d5e/32.png) [@Edmund](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Edmund)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/19 "2005-08-17T03:38:36Z")
> [@KPM](#): > > When I said I saw very little actual WCK in the sparring clips I’ve viewed, this is what I’m getting at…most look very much like a form of kickboxing (using a boxing biomechanic) with the occasional WCK hand technique inserted. They typically do not use the WCK biomechanic and structure that they spend so much time training in the forms and drills. So then why not train the forms and drills using this boxing biomechanic that seems to naturally want to show up in sparring/fighting? Again, just thinking out loud! 😉 You should. I drill that way. There’s lots of different methods for biomechanics. WCK biomechanics has it’s applicability in certain situations. I’m sure that people manage to get the job done without WC optimum biomechanics and structure so it’s not a particularly big deal. However, a lot of the time people do a kickboxing stance simply because that’s the best way they figured out to use the most basic techniques they have been taught. Most WC people just do straight punches and kicks because that’s the simplest techniques that they know. So they stand in a way that allows them to do that. If we took a person and only taught them a very heavy sidekick, they’d be moving around with their body side-on. ---
**Author:** ![lawrenceofidaho](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/lawrenceofidaho/32/478_2.png) [@lawrenceofidaho](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/lawrenceofidaho)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241/20 "2005-08-17T17:16:10Z")
> [@AndrewS](#): > > Lawrence- ‘Low percentage techniques’- Other than tie sao and double punches, there’s very little I’d call low percentage, going through the empty hand forms. Some things need to be looked at from a slightly different angle, but personally, I think nearly every piece of each form is amenable to practical application in live drilling, followed by integration into sparring. You would probably be shocked at some of the technical points that have some actual use. The term “low percentage” might actually have multiple (related) meanings: 1. Situations for use of the particular technique don’t often come up. 2. When it’s attempted, there is a low percentage chance of it succeeding. 3. Only a low percentage of practicioners have the attributes to make it work. I know firsthand how being around Sifu Emin can make you believe that all things are possible (but to an extent, I think there is some truth to the maxim), -because when you ask him to show how some obscure technique is applied, he can pull it off in a pretty convincing way… The thing is, how many of us have even a fraction of his; natural ability, training intensity, level of conditioning, or amounts of training time available? -By way of analogy, how much will the Average Joe at Gold’s gym (or wherever) benefit from following the workout routines of the top 5 finishers at the Mr Olympia? I’m 5’ 9", 152lbs, 35 years old, not particularly gifted with athletic ability, and train between 6-7 hours per week. It is not realistic for me to believe I can make certain “low percentage” techniques work for me the way the best pro WC teachers can. -And even when they do use things like that, it is because they have their opponent so outmatched that they can; show off, play, experiment, etc. I don’t often have these luxuries, as the majority of my training partners at the gym are; bigger than me, about ten years younger, and are single (so they have more free evenings for training available to them). The way I stay competitive with those guys is by focusing on “high percentage” fundamentals. -Sometimes I’ll play a bit and try more exotic stuff when we’re sparring light, but if someone’s being very aggressive, and I try those things, I generally end up getting clocked, or trying to escape a submission that I just opened myself up for. I would be very interested to watch / buy the DVD of the EBMAS full contact tourney that went down in Europe recently. My guess is that even in the technician divisions, where the guys have a large repertoire of chi sau sections to choose from, there’ll be a limited amount of “bread and butter” techniques being used effectively (Sections 1 & 3, and some elbow stuff from BT section1), and little (if anything) from the other sections (2,4,5,6,7,and BT 2-4). -If I saw those EBMAS fights and was wrong about my pre-conception, I am very willing to re-evaluate my position, and to try making some adjustments to my training to regularly include some of the other stuff that guys were able to make work in their matches. > [@AndrewS](#): > > A few things are pretty much just developmental. Figure what they develop, and why. I know there is some truth to what you’re saying, but every TMA has weird old-school stuff that they keep around for “developmental” reasons. The criteria I attempt to judge it on is by comparing it’s usefullness to other things I could be doing (cross-training, modern sports conditioning drills, spending more time with WT basics, etc.) The true cost of a thing is what you have to forego in order to get it. -I don’t think that focusing on many of those little WT details will pay off as much for me as using that same time to work on BJJ basics (for example). -Lawrence [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/thinking-out-loud/33241.md?page=2)