# The tough thing about teaching martial arts. **URL:** \ **Category:** Kung Fu Forum\ **Created:** [November 23, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417 "2011-11-23T23:39:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Golden\_Arms](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/golden_arms/32/247_2.png) [@Golden\_Arms](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Golden_Arms)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/1 "2011-11-23T23:39:37Z")
Iron Fist’s thread on cheapening the arts brought to mind a few observations I have had over the years: 1. Not everyone is wired to be a warrior. Even among those that are, there are tiers. The military is a good example of this, becoming a special operator tests the mental and emotional wiring just as much if not more than it does the physical attributes. This is an inconvenient truth that many in MA choose to overlook, and were you to survey martial arts students and teachers alike, you would likely find that their thoughts on what they are capable of may vary quite a bit from what they actually are capable of. 2. There are often not enough students that want to fight and get banged up out there to run a successful school that teaches only this aspect of the martial arts, yet that is exactly what these arts are based around at their core, or at least in some cases, were when created. 3. Some people that attend classes but are not there to fight have other talents that they bring to the equation, such as being sort of a social “glue” for the group, good with organizing and helping things run smoothly, etc. If we cut them from the equation then we make things much tougher and often less desirable across the board from a logistics standpoint, but if we accept them, we must accept that we are teaching people that are not likely to become fighters, a common complaint about martial arts is that a person that has been around for 10+ years cannot fight. So it appears that if someone wished to teach only fighters in a non sport specific discipline, it means that they are going to potentially be teaching out of pocket, likely struggle with students leaving and small numbers of students to work with in the first place. No wonder there is not more of the good stuff out there. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![YouKnowWho](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/youknowwho/32/583_2.png) [@YouKnowWho](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/YouKnowWho)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/2 "2011-11-24T02:16:04Z")
The tough thing about teaching martial arts. IMO, the tough thing about teaching TCMA is the Gong development. If your student doesn’t want to put time into it, there is nothing that you can do about it. When a student’s technique doesn’t work, he will complain that the technique is no good instead of admitting that his Gong has not yet been fully developed. ---
**Author:** ![RickMatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@RickMatz](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/RickMatz)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/3 "2011-11-24T02:35:44Z")
I knew an aikido teacher who made his living as a fireman. He was paid reasonably well, had great health insurance, other benefits and a pension. He worked about 1 week a month, albeit 24/7 during that week. That REALLY lowered the bar for what he had to make at his aikido school to keep it open. He taught aikido when he wasn’t putting out fires and had a senior student supervise the others practice their testing techniques when he was. ---
**Author:** ![SPJ](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/spj/32/496_2.png) [@SPJ](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/SPJ)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/4 "2011-11-24T02:56:22Z")
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1144788]The tough thing about teaching martial arts. IMO, the tough thing about teaching TCMA is the Gong development. If your student doesn’t want to put time into it, there is nothing that you can do about it. When a student’s technique doesn’t work, he will complain that the technique is no good instead of admitting that his Gong has not yet been fully developed.[/QUOTE] yes. the teacher only give the students some guidance. the rest is really upto the student to practice or drill to perfection both in timing and power structure or gong. shi fu ling jin men xiu xing zhai ge ren. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Shaolin](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/shaolin/32/160_2.png) [@Shaolin](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Shaolin)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 7:22am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/5 "2011-11-24T07:22:02Z")
The problem is the school owners/instructors. The way I read your post Golden Arms is in all three examples the “people” (students) are the problem. This is not true. The problem is the instructors aren’t good business men. If you have a problem in your business or in the industry itself create a solution don’t redirect the blame. The prospects coming in to inquire are reluctant to sign up or even try a class because of the fear of getting hurt, which is a legitimate concern. You are correct in your statement “Not everyone is wired to be a warrior.” Keep in mind though that even top tier fighters get nervous before a bout. So instead of the instructor getting frustrated and thinking they have to have a fight gym and struggle keeping students while working a day job or sell out with a no contact type school that practices kata all day and pretends to be fighters , they need to create a way to bridge the two. I challenge you other school owners/instructors; how do you ethically sign up a new student that’s not interested in sparring because they’re afraid and still get them to spar and learn quality fighting skills? ---
**Author:** ![YouKnowWho](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/youknowwho/32/583_2.png) [@YouKnowWho](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/YouKnowWho)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 7:34am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/6 "2011-11-24T07:34:49Z")
[QUOTE=Shaolin;1144827] a new student that’s not interested in sparring …[/QUOTE] In the begining of your class, you can divide your students into 2 circles. The person on the inside circle will have to spar the person on the outside circle. After 1 minutes, you can ask the inside circle to shift one person to the left. This way everybody will have chance to spar with everyday. Since everybody are busy sparring, nobody is watching, there won’t be any ego involved. If you call this as part of the “warm up”, after a period of time, your students won’t feel that sparring is that hard at all. ---
**Author:** ![IronFist](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/ironfist/32/16_2.png) [@IronFist](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/IronFist)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 7:37am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/7 "2011-11-24T07:37:38Z")
Good thread. I wasn’t saying only teach fighters. I have no problem with people teaching the other stuff. I’m saying it shouldn’t be taught under the pretense of being a martial art that you can rely upon to defend yourself. Run schools that teach pretty forms and other dances with weapons. Not everyone wants to be a warrior. Just don’t call it martial arts, because it’s not. Call it martial arts inspired fitness or something like that. It’s kind of like how being good at Guitar Hero doesn’t mean you can play guitar. ---
**Author:** ![IronFist](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/ironfist/32/16_2.png) [@IronFist](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/IronFist)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 7:39am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/8 "2011-11-24T07:39:41Z")
[QUOTE=Shaolin;1144827]I challenge you other school owners/instructors; how do you ethically sign up a new student that’s not interested in sparring because they’re afraid and still get them to spar and learn quality fighting skills?[/QUOTE] “We will teach you whatever you want to know, but be aware that without sparring against a resisting opponent, it is not likely that you will develop the skills to defend yourself in an actual confrontation.” ---
**Author:** ![IronFist](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/ironfist/32/16_2.png) [@IronFist](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/IronFist)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 7:44am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/9 "2011-11-24T07:44:58Z")
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1144788]The tough thing about teaching martial arts. IMO, the tough thing about teaching TCMA is the Gong development. If your student doesn’t want to put time into it, there is nothing that you can do about it. When a student’s technique doesn’t work, he will complain that the technique is no good instead of admitting that his Gong has not yet been fully developed.[/QUOTE] This presupposes he’s being taught a useful technique in the first place. Otherwise it’s just “guru” nonsense. (referring to a technique done in class with a partner where the partner leaves his arm extended after the punch for the student to perform some intricate counter attack on) Student: “Sifu, my 10 hit punch counter didn’t work and I got beaten up! I don’t get it!” Scammy Sifu: “that’s because your gong is not yet developed. Practice it 1,000 more times!” _Student walks away being mislead and following the wrong path_ There is so much of this type of stuff in TCMA that a student may have excellent gong, but he’s spent his time practicing the wrong stuff. Like a karate guy who practices high block + reverse punch 200 times a day for 10 years. He probably has a darn good high block + reverse punch. But is that going to help him in a fight? Probably not. So what’s the deal? Is it his gong that is lacking? No. ---
**Author:** ![YouKnowWho](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/youknowwho/32/583_2.png) [@YouKnowWho](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/YouKnowWho)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 8:18am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/10 "2011-11-24T08:18:41Z")
[QUOTE=IronFist;1144832]Student: “Sifu, my 10 hit punch counter didn’t work and I got beaten up! I don’t get it!” Scammy Sifu: “that’s because your gong is not yet developed. Practice it 1,000 more times!”.[/QUOTE] To me, Gong is ability training. You use equipment (weight) to make yourself strong. Here is one of the Gong development that I’m talking about. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5obo6QAJek](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5obo6QAJek) You are talking about “technique” and not “Gong (ability)” here. No matter how fast and how accuracy your punch may be (technique), if you don’t have punching power (Gong), your punch won’t be able to knock your opponent down. If a teacher asks his students to punch on heavy bag 500 times daily, if the students don’t do it, there is nothing that the teacher can do there. The teacher cannot punch on heavy bag for his students. The students have to do that all by themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Iron\_Eagle\_76](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/iron_eagle_76/32/657_2.png) [@Iron\_Eagle\_76](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Iron_Eagle_76)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/11 "2011-11-24T15:28:24Z")
If a potential new student comes to my gym and says they do not want to spar I will let the join and go through the workouts but also inform them that without sparring, they will never be good fighters and are simply doing it for exercise. I would also encourage them to join other schools that are more suited for their needs, because I don’t teach for a living and honestly don’t understand why someone would want to do martial arts without sparring:confused: ---
**Author:** ![sanjuro\_ronin](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sanjuro_ronin/32/793_2.png) [@sanjuro\_ronin](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/sanjuro_ronin)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/12 "2011-11-24T16:01:28Z")
You can teach only what YOU Want to teach or you can teach people what THEY want to learn. The choice is yours. ---
**Author:** ![ginosifu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@ginosifu](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ginosifu)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/13 "2011-11-24T16:12:31Z")
GoldernArms: If you are running a commercial MA school, then you need to give the people what they want. Most average person wants some exercise, some Asian culture, some socializing and basic self defense. They are not interested in sparring, SC, San Shou, BJJ, ground fighting etc etc. If your commercial MA school leans towards more fighting, SC or BJJ you will struggle to survive. [QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1144829]In the begining of your class, you can divide your students into 2 circles. The person on the inside circle will have to spar the person on the outside circle. After 1 minutes, you can ask the inside circle to shift one person to the left. This way everybody will have chance to spar with everyday. Since everybody are busy sparring, nobody is watching, there won’t be any ego involved. If you call this as part of the “warm up”, after a period of time, your students won’t feel that sparring is that hard at all.[/QUOTE] YKW: if you are running a commercial school this may not always work. People that do not want to fight will not fight no matter how good or fun you make it. These folks will quit your school. These are the facts of life for the average person. Lets face the fact that fighting, SC, Grappling, Sparring etc etc. is not the most popular thing in MA. Even the most popular BJJ schools do not force everyone to roll around all the time. It is mix of exercise, drills, self defense and a little rolling around. If you run a TCMA out of your garage, then do what you want… kill them, make them fight everyday… whatever your goals are form them. You will only have 3-5 students though… thats about it. In my SC class I have 20 or so kids, but usually 3-5 adults. Sad but it’s the truth. ginosifu ---
**Author:** ![ginosifu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@ginosifu](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ginosifu)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/14 "2011-11-24T16:15:28Z")
[QUOTE=sanjuro\_ronin;1144867]You can teach only what YOU Want to teach or you can teach people what THEY want to learn. The choice is yours.[/QUOTE] If you try and teach what YOU want to teach, you will have a limited amount of students. If you teach what the public wants then you have an abundant amount of students. ginosifu ---
**Author:** ![sanjuro\_ronin](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sanjuro_ronin/32/793_2.png) [@sanjuro\_ronin](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/sanjuro_ronin)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/15 "2011-11-24T16:29:02Z")
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1144872]If you try and teach what YOU want to teach, you will have a limited amount of students. If you teach what the public wants then you have an abundant amount of students. ginosifu[/QUOTE] Quite correct. Such is life. ---
**Author:** ![N11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@N11](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/N11)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/16 "2011-11-24T16:43:32Z")
+1 what ginosifu and sanjuro\_ronin said. ---
**Author:** ![mooyingmantis](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/mooyingmantis/32/655_2.png) [@mooyingmantis](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/mooyingmantis)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/17 "2011-11-24T17:59:42Z")
[QUOTE=IronFist;1144831]“We will teach you whatever you want to know, but be aware that without sparring against a resisting opponent, it is not likely that you will develop the skills to defend yourself in an actual confrontation.”[/QUOTE] This for the win! ---
**Author:** ![RWilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/50afbb/32.png) [@RWilson](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/RWilson)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/18 "2011-11-24T18:17:17Z")
In regards to kickboxing type sparring it is best to let the two people sparring decide the amount of force that is going to be involved. It would not be good to team the new guy up with the gung ho guy who can only go hard. I would also add that women should not be sparring men unless the men are not afraid to strike them and the women know they are going to get hit. Training women and men together can be tricky. One of the reasons bjj is so popular is because the sparring is relatively safe. You get to tap out. When kickboxing it is the little injuries that add up: jammed fingers/toes, getting hit in the nose, ball shots, etc. The two guys in this clip are practically having a picnic and chitchatting. BJJ sparring is safe and fun. Still kind of gay but safe. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9RIFtCqk4g](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9RIFtCqk4g) ---
**Author:** ![IronFist](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/ironfist/32/16_2.png) [@IronFist](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/IronFist)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/19 "2011-11-24T18:51:26Z")
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1144870]GoldernArms: If you are running a commercial MA school, then you need to give the people what they want. Most average person wants some exercise, some Asian culture, some socializing and basic self defense. They are not interested in sparring, SC, San Shou, BJJ, ground fighting etc etc. If your commercial MA school leans towards more fighting, SC or BJJ you will struggle to survive. [/QUOTE] True. I think most people want the Karate Kid experience. But perhaps that is because they think doing forms and punches while the teacher counts off repetitions (bonus points if they’re counting them off in an Asian language) will make them able to defend themselves. ---
**Author:** ![IronFist](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/ironfist/32/16_2.png) [@IronFist](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/IronFist)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417/20 "2011-11-24T18:53:21Z")
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1144836]To me, Gong is ability training. You use equipment (weight) to make yourself strong. Here is one of the Gong development that I’m talking about. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5obo6QAJek](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5obo6QAJek) You are talking about “technique” and not “Gong (ability)” here. No matter how fast and how accuracy your punch may be (technique), if you don’t have punching power (Gong), your punch won’t be able to knock your opponent down. If a teacher asks his students to punch on heavy bag 500 times daily, if the students don’t do it, there is nothing that the teacher can do there. The teacher cannot punch on heavy bag for his students. The students have to do that all by themselves.[/QUOTE] Dude, I’m one of the biggest proponents of strength on this forum. But even if you’re super strong, if you are using that strength in techniques that don’t work, you are probably going to lose. A triathelete bodybuilder powerlifter marathoner superhuman mutant doing high block, reverse punch against a boxer will still probably not do very well in a fight. [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-tough-thing-about-teaching-martial-arts/52417.md?page=2)