Originally posted by Christopher M
[B]For sure.
What I would object to, following the analogy, would be someone claiming that that punching skill is an example of superlative piano playing. [/B]
Or maybe good violin playing? Sound like anyone we know Serpent? 
Not quite sure I understand your point.
(BTW, I believe that chi is more than physics or good mechanics, but for the sake of the discussionā¦)
No oneās saying this stuff, by nature of being physics, has no learning or training associated with it.
What people may have a problem with is calling this stuff qigong or martial arts.
That said, as demoed on the video clips, many of these demos donāt have any learning or training associated with them.
Originally posted by joedoe
[B]
Or maybe good violin playing? Sound like anyone we know Serpent? [/B]
Originally posted by Christopher M
[B]No oneās saying this stuff, by nature of being physics, has no learning or training associated with it.
What people may have a problem with is calling this stuff qigong or martial arts.
That said, as demoed on the video clips, many of these demos donāt have any learning or training associated with them. [/B]
Chris, point taken.
However, while there may be no actual training necessary, perhaps someone schooled in qigong could do these things repeatedly without injury or repercussion while the untrained might not be able to?
Anythingās possible.
There just doesnāt seem to be any reason to think thatās whatās going on here.
A good punch is simple physics. But it takes a long time to learn how to do a really good punch.
Define long.
FWIW, I agree with Chris M. These demonstrations donāt show any abilities to tap into anything beyond normal physics. You can stand on a sharp sword in bare feetā¦just donāt slide them, etcā¦
Is there a requirement that qiqong not obey the laws of physics to be valid as qiqong? Curious.
its a circus act, sure, but a pretty good one anyway.
BTW, found the entirety here.
ZIM, you misunderstand. IMO if it can be explained as a circus trick, then thereās nothing special about it. It doesnāt demonstrate ANYTHING to me beyond practice of a specific trick and some natural aptitude.
I donāt mean that it need be supernatural. Just that we donāt have to wander around talking about special training for this and that and what it does or doesnāt demonstrate when it CLEARLY just demonstrates that somebody used some basic physics to their advantage as they trained to do a specific trick.
Understood, MP- i was wondering if this is a good general rule [as it were] for judging validity. After all, some think that even such demonstrations as āempty forceā or light body skill is amenable to explanations from physics. So, the question gets begged once againā¦ 
Still, iām agreeing that these particular demos may not illustrate all that much. Iād be truly dumbfounded to see light-body stuff thoā¦that i want to see. Unfortunately, iād bet an acrobat would come up and spoil the whole thing for meā¦
Some,maybe many do have the appetite for deluding themselves to creating anomalies that are not there.
And others tend to place things on a pedestal (sp? its still early) and not want to believe its not really āsupernaturalā.
Personally, I have never considered Chi as supernatural.
I hold to the view that it is as natural as the nose on ones face.
I could never understand those who attribute magical powers to Chi Cultivation. Instead, I believe that Breath work improves and corrects bad habits that you accumulate in life. It is to return to the state of being that you were in as a child, but in the form of an adult. Think of the advantages! No back pain! No breathing problems, no wasted energy, etc etc.
As an aside, for anyone of those demonstrations, they would fall apart rapidly with the application of the āshort sharp shockā as opposed to the long steady push that they do employ in pretty much all cases, with the exception of the rock breaking. I would be thoroughly impressed with someone who could slowly push there hand through a stone as opposed to a sharp percussion.
Now that would be supernatural because it doesnāt fit into a physics model. The amount of pressure and force would be beyond the capabilities of a human to do it when the stone is of a given density.
The same goes for someone jumping up and onto those spears quickly. The balancing act and carefulness are reflective that there is a physics trick involved.
cheers
> hold to the view that it is as natural as the nose on ones face
ā¦assuming we arenāt talking about Michael Jackson here.
lol@csn
cheers
Cool links
Iāve only had the time to look at the iron hand portion, but the physics take reminds me of the article written by our copy editor Gary Shockley in our Iron Skills issue Mar Apr 2003.
As for that iron hand break, just as an aside, thatās not a Shaolin Monk, but itās the father of one, or a former one, at least. The break is by Zhang Jian Shu, father of Zhang Li Peng (formerly Shi Xingpeng.) Zhnag did that break for me years ago when he was living in the Wushuguan complex. We had been drinking as he was doing some dit da on me and some fellow Ameican students, and he just hauled off and started breaking rocks, chipping them like a knife through butter. It was one of the most impressive iron palm demos Iāve ever seen.
"We had been drinking as he was doing some dit da on me "
Gene, please explain this, Im new to practicing Iron palm.
-SD
A good punch is simple physics. But it takes a long time to learn how to do a really good punch.
exactlyā¦
dit daā¦ bone settingā¦ tradtional chinese medicineā¦
If Iām thinking along the right avenues I think this is what he meansā¦ .
Focusing your energy to have proper physics = good chiā¦
Dit da zhang
Zhang Jian Shu is well known at Shaolin for his dit da skills - bone setting, like np said. Itās a valuable talent at Shaolin, since everyone is getting hurt a lot. Any wise practitioner dials into a good affordable dit dat zhang as soon as they begin intensive training.
Zhang Sr. was mixing up some medicine with Chinese wine. I had drank a few beers with some classmates prior to our evening visit so had a good buzz going. One of the classmates had purchased Wing Lamās Iron Palm videos and knew that I worked on those, so he was asking me about it. As soon as Zhang figured out we were talking about iron palm, he ran out a got some rocks and started smashing them, right on his living room floor. It was quite a treat. That is what I love about Shaolin - if you just hang out and pay attention, youāre bound to witness something mindblowing.
Zhang is not a very big man, but that hand, that handā¦