# the problem with forms **URL:** \ **Category:** Kung Fu Forum\ **Created:** [April 29, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305 "2008-04-29T00:18:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lucas](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/lucas/32/819_2.png) [@Lucas](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Lucas)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/41 "2008-04-29T21:56:06Z")
One mans trash is another mans treasure. pretty cliche’ BUT it very much so holds truth. also experiences will govern the way we percieve… I have asked some people who hate forms before to perform one for me that they had previously learned. of course I asked for their best form. Now granted I have only asked this of 2 people, neither person gave me a good example. This could be for a multiple of reasons, however in these two cases, their material was just playn rubbish. only one of the guys seemed to even know what he was performing. however neither of them (agreeably so after the performance) put in the time to actually master the form in question. let alone a majority of the applications. They had practiced traditional arts, but only so far. which was not far enough. besides one of the guys was TKD, which is all good and well, but it was a sport style, hardly self defense oriented. ---
**Author:** ![Yao\_Sing](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/yao_sing/32/739_2.png) [@Yao\_Sing](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Yao_Sing)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/42 "2008-04-29T22:14:29Z")
I think overall you’ll find that the peeps who trash forms aren’t very good at them and the peeps who defend them are good at them. That and the fact that the peeps trashing forms have usually made the switch to MMA. You can see that coming a mile away and I was going to say something when someone commented that Golden Arhat thought forms were useless because he was a modern Wushu player. I was going to say it was because he recently started training at an MMA camp. You can always tell who starts training at a MMA gym by the rhetoric they begin spouting. ---
**Author:** ![SifuAbel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sifuabel/32/45_2.png) [@SifuAbel](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/SifuAbel)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 10:21pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/43 "2008-04-29T22:21:55Z")
[QUOTE=golden arhat;857480]i USED to do modern wushu correct i also have been doing traditional martial arts including tkd, hung gar and aikido. since i was roughly six years old i’ve been doing mixed martial arts for the past 2 years now[/QUOTE] Yeah, now at 17 you are seasoned and worldly. :rolleyes: I can’t wait until you actually grow up to see how much of a golden asshat you are. I may not live to see that day, however. ---
**Author:** ![golden\_arhat](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/golden_arhat/32/662_2.png) [@golden\_arhat](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/golden_arhat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/44 "2008-04-29T22:26:12Z")
[QUOTE=SifuAbel;857491] I may not live to see that day, however.[/QUOTE] hope so 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Becca](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/becca/32/410_2.png) [@Becca](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Becca)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 10:55pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/45 "2008-04-29T22:55:03Z")
[QUOTE=golden arhat;857480]i USED to do modern wushu correct i also have been doing traditional martial arts including tkd, hung gar and aikido. since i was roughly six years old i’ve been doing mixed martial arts for the past 2 years now[/QUOTE]Really? You should have gotten some good, solid, usfull forms with the Hung Gar if you stuck around for any length of time or were over the age of 10. ---
**Author:** ![SifuAbel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sifuabel/32/45_2.png) [@SifuAbel](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/SifuAbel)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 11:23pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/46 "2008-04-29T23:23:40Z")
[QUOTE=golden arhat;857492]hope so :)[/QUOTE] yeah, 60 years won’t be enough. ---
**Author:** ![golden\_arhat](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/golden_arhat/32/662_2.png) [@golden\_arhat](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/golden_arhat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 11:47pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/47 "2008-04-29T23:47:02Z")
[QUOTE=Becca;857497]Really? You should have gotten some good, solid, usfull forms with the Hung Gar if you stuck around for any length of time or were over the age of 10.[/QUOTE] maybe the instruction was poor for my hung gar. i personally with hindsight dont think it measures up to what i’m doing now in both quality and physically. my tkd instructor was a silver medalist at one point tho, and i will give it its due my kicks are my strength, goes to show what getting in there early can do. haha i was 15 when i left my hung gar teacher, and i havent studied it under anyone else so i dont have much to compare it with but my trad training isnt limited to those three arts i’vre done a myriad of others, not for as long but just to give them a go and they all seem to be as good/bad as each other. ---
**Author:** ![Becca](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/becca/32/410_2.png) [@Becca](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Becca)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 12:37am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/48 "2008-04-30T00:37:58Z")
[QUOTE=golden arhat;857502]maybe the instruction was poor for my hung gar. i personally with hindsight dont think it measures up to what i’m doing now in both quality and physically. … i was 15 when i left my hung gar teacher, and i havent studied it under anyone else so i dont have much to compare it with …[/QUOTE] Maybe you are just not one of those who doesn’t get much from forms, too. Heck, even the guy I was studying submission wrestling from figured out I work best with forms and “created” a couple for me. Of course, he is a figment of my imagination as he is a successful mixed martial artist who’s stand up is Wing Chun. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Chop](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/pork_chop/32/467_2.png) [@Pork\_Chop](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Pork_Chop)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/49 "2008-04-30T04:06:57Z")
[QUOTE=Yao Sing;857488] You can always tell who starts training at a MMA gym by the rhetoric they begin spouting.[/QUOTE] Nobody tells me to say these things. I’m speaking 100 from personal experience. One of the stories I bring up is how taking up training forms & stances again led to my footwork in san shou going down hill and getting chewed out for it (ie. for becoming more flat-footed, not for training forms & stancework). I’ve tried both and I’m allowed to have an opinion. It’s not like I drank the koolaide, if anything I stopped drinking it. I very rarely tell people at muay thai, boxing, mma, or san shou gyms my prior tcma background. the subject just never comes up. i think you’d be surprised at how little actual talking goes on outside of the current days lesson. Was watching satori science’s vid with sharif and maoshan; remembered the good ole days of sitting around talking like that with sifu; and then realized that I’ve never really had any of those philosophy type talks at any of the gyms I train at. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Jamieson](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/david_jamieson/32/19_2.png) [@David\_Jamieson](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/David_Jamieson)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 11:38am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/50 "2008-04-30T11:38:42Z")
[QUOTE=Pork Chop;857528]Nobody tells me to say these things. I’m speaking 100% from personal experience. One of the stories I bring up is how taking up training forms & stances again led to my footwork in san shou going down hill and getting chewed out for it (ie. for becoming more flat-footed, not for training forms & stancework). I’ve tried both and I’m allowed to have an opinion. It’s not like I drank the koolaide, if anything I stopped drinking it. I very rarely tell people at muay thai, boxing, mma, or san shou gyms my prior tcma background. the subject just never comes up. i think you’d be surprised at how little actual talking goes on outside of the current days lesson. Was watching satori science’s vid with sharif and maoshan; remembered the good ole days of sitting around talking like that with sifu; and then realized that I’ve never really had any of those philosophy type talks at any of the gyms I train at.[/QUOTE] lol. I concur with this marked difference. Just shut up and train is the apparent rule of thumb in a modern gym. I like forms personally. I like to practice forms and I like to deconstruct them and drill sequences inside them. Got some interesting combos that way. ---
**Author:** ![couch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecccb3/32.png) [@couch](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/couch)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 12:06pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/51 "2008-04-30T12:06:08Z")
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;857549]lol. I concur with this marked difference. Just shut up and train is the apparent rule of thumb in a modern gym. I like forms personally. I like to practice forms and I like to deconstruct them and drill sequences inside them. Got some interesting combos that way.[/QUOTE] To each their own. I enjoy the fact that I can sit around, have a beer with the classmates, check out my instructor’s porn collection, etc. LOL While I think that too much goofing around in class leads to poor work ethic and therefore poor results, I think it’s important to get along like family (the Griswolds). ---
**Author:** ![David\_Jamieson](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/david_jamieson/32/19_2.png) [@David\_Jamieson](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/David_Jamieson)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 12:21pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/52 "2008-04-30T12:21:53Z")
I also like plyometrics sessions, yoga, heavy cv work, bag work, sparring, lifting and running a few k’s on the treadmill now and again. if kungfu was only forms, it wouldn’t be kungfu. ---
**Author:** ![sean\_stonehart](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sean_stonehart/32/24_2.png) [@sean\_stonehart](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/sean_stonehart)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 1:19pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/53 "2008-04-30T13:19:14Z")
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;857393]Ah, but the educated concensus is that forms as we know them today are less than TWO hundreds years old as opposed to a martial culture in CHina that is THOUSANDS of years old IE, for most of TCMA’s history, it was done more like, gasp!, mixed martial arts :eek:[/QUOTE] Coach Ross… shhhhhhhh… don’t give away the trade secrets!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mkriii](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/mkriii/32/502_2.png) [@mkriii](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/mkriii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 2:27pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/54 "2008-04-30T14:27:24Z")
[QUOTE=golden arhat;857278]basically i have a theory as to why forms are useless basically i see it as if your shadow boxing your thinking of where your placing hits on an opponent and moving according to that, your free flowing and fighting an imaginary opponent this enables you to react accordingly should it happen in real life now with forms the way i learnt them tho i would try and think where they would go the emphasis was on it looking right, with the right move coming after the previous one etc now if your only thinking about what to put after another move arent you basically a dancer? your mind is so preoccupied on getting the form right that you miss out on what the techniques you are practising actually do. a punch is a punch but who punches with the intention of the one coming after it looking right ? or in the correct order ? thoughts ?[/QUOTE] Dude, you really need to learn how to spell. And if your still having to think what move comes next in your form then you haven’t learned it well enough yet let alone mastered it. When you have mastered a form you should be able to do the form in your sleep so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![golden\_arhat](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/golden_arhat/32/662_2.png) [@golden\_arhat](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/golden_arhat)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/55 "2008-04-30T15:20:23Z")
[QUOTE=mkriii;857582]Dude, you really need to learn how to spell. And if your still having to think what move comes next in your form then you haven’t learned it well enough yet let alone mastered it. When you have mastered a form you should be able to do the form in your sleep so to speak.[/QUOTE] how are you commenting on my forms ability i used to love them!!! even when you know them back tofront still one move must follow another in a set order right? so that means you cant improvise or make it so you know what each thing does and goes where in a fight i mean think about it regardless of how well you know it its not like your throwing out there as you think about what an opponent would do cos one move has to come after the other one so isnt shadow boxing at least a better tool for the same job ??? and yeah pointing out spelling mistakes is the last recourse of idiots everywhere if thats what you point out first about my argument you obviously dont have alot to say for your own. ---
**Author:** ![mkriii](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/mkriii/32/502_2.png) [@mkriii](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/mkriii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/56 "2008-04-30T18:20:51Z")
“still one move must follow another in a set order right? so that means you cant improvise or make it so you know what each thing does and goes where in a fight i mean think about it regardless of how well you know it its not like your throwing out there as you think about what an opponent would do cos one move has to come after the other one so isnt shadow boxing at least a better tool for the same job ???” Performing a form is different than using a form in a fight. You aren’t going to do a form against someone because they aren’t going to do exactly what comes next in the form. Thats why you have to know the techniques by heart and know what techniques to pick out of the form to do. ---
**Author:** ![golden\_arhat](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/golden_arhat/32/662_2.png) [@golden\_arhat](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/golden_arhat)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/57 "2008-04-30T18:30:02Z")
[QUOTE=mkriii;857640] Performing a form is different than using a form in a fight. You aren’t going to do a form against someone because they aren’t going to do exactly what comes next in the form. Thats why you have to know the techniques by heart and know what techniques to pick out of the form to do.[/QUOTE] i never said you would do a form in a fight your powers of comprehension are severely limited. thast the whole point shadow boxing is a better tool because it bypasses the whole getting-to-know-a-form-before-being-able-to-use-it learning curve i dont have to learn a form to be able to jab cross someone, apparently you do? the whole point is that when practising the form your bound by whatever comes next i never said what you would do in a real fight its just that you can perform anything shadowboxing as it becomes apparent your imaginary opponent is doing something you can react in a form your bound by what comes next forms are regimented shadowboxing is individual i can see why ross thinks that forms were developed for mass classes. just like theyre used in modern wushu classes to drill the basics with 50 to a hundred people or more. forms must do something but i think theyrea very backward tool unless your teaching a large group of people. ---
**Author:** ![couch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecccb3/32.png) [@couch](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/couch)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/58 "2008-04-30T18:30:50Z")
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;857557]I also like plyometrics sessions, yoga, heavy cv work, bag work, sparring, lifting and running a few k’s on the treadmill now and again. if kungfu was only forms, it wouldn’t be kungfu.[/QUOTE] This is true. For some reason, a lot of people equate TMA with non-sparring/non-bag work/non-heavy bag/non-skipping rope/etc. I think it is a modern ‘esoteric’ version of the MA that we see in most watered down schools today. ---
**Author:** ![lkfmdc](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/lkfmdc/32/14_2.png) [@lkfmdc](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/lkfmdc)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 6:36pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/59 "2008-04-30T18:36:49Z")
More not so politically correct truth 😃 Forms are also a function of an illiterate sub culture, an attempt to preserve knowledge that could not be written down Today, not only can we write it down, we can film it and put it on discs… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Lucas](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/lucas/32/819_2.png) [@Lucas](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Lucas)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305/60 "2008-04-30T18:58:57Z")
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;857647] Today, not only can we write it down, we can film it and put it on discs… :rolleyes:[/QUOTE] This is one of the largest factors in todays martial arts world. Also one of the reason I dumped pretty much all of my forms. the only 2 forms i practice daily are my xiaohongquan and my dahongquan, simply because I do really want to master those 2 forms. And I will. I love my weapon forms though, they are soooo fun. I do those just because of how much fun they are. My love for weapons are what originally drew me to martial arts anyway, they will always be a part of my life. Although I usually do not stick to form with my weapons for very long, I’ll run them a couple times, then just do drills and make impromptu forms (weapon shadowboxing) Some weapons I simply have no forms for. Nunchaku for instance, im an intermediat nunchaku player, but it all comes from personal practice. Lots of lumps and bruises at the beginning, but now I can wail on em. speed bags are fun and so are heavy bags. I also like to beat on chairs with em. yet i digress… [Previous page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/the-problem-with-forms/43305.md?page=4)