The oldest martial arts manual found?

[QUOTE=Anthony;718717]http://www.nardis.com/~twchan/henning.html

The above is definately not today’s common use of the words “internal” and “external” in MA but here’s a source, can I have some of your (Sal and Ghost) sources.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=“2”]http://www.regenttour.com/china/martial/index7.htm

Here is where I found the “yin and yang” theory in Song martial arts material. To tell you the truth, this is not the original website where I found this. I can’t find the old one, but the info is pretty much word-for-word.[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;718736]Seven Books of MArtial Classics–compiled in 1080 CE and used as a source for Imperial examinations.

Han Shu, written sometime between 25 CE and 220 CE had a book entitled Six Chapters on Hand Fighting (but no copies currently exist).[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=“2”]This seems like a neat book, but from what I’ve read, it doesn’t even have a bibliography section. This really mares its credibility. I’m not saying the material isn’t true, but citing its sources would allow people to consult them for accuracy and for further research.[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=Anthony;718410]Interesting…but two things strike me as odd.

One, why would a daoist priest be called upon to teach troops, unless he was an ex-warrior or general what would he know?

Two, “Pei Xiuning categorized the internal and external styles of martial arts into two broad typesarmed or unarmed.”

“External” and “Internal” as categories of MA didn’t exist until the 1600’s.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=“2”]I visit the China History Forum on occasion and I totally forgot that Brian L. Kennedy has posted on there before. Here is a section that is related to the internal/external thing:[/SIZE]

"[I]Internal versus External
This classification scheme causes lots of debate wherever and whenever it is used. According to this scheme, Chinese martial arts are either internal or external or, to use another set of words, soft styles or hard styles. The distinction is supposed to be based on whether the system gives priority to developing internal strength or external strength which generally gets reduced to: does the system place a great emphasis on qi development or not? Or in a slightly different version of the distinction, the internal arts are supposed to place an emphasis on defensive strategies while the external arts place their focus on offensive strategies.
In this classification scheme, the arts of Xingyi, Bagua and Taijiquan are the three major internal systems. Everything else is external. It parallels the Wudang versus Shaolin scheme.
The problem with the internal versus external scheme is that it is a false dichotomy. Xingyi practitioners do lots of push-ups and sit-ups; both of which are external strength exercises. In a similar vein, Hung Garostensibly an external systemhas an entire set, the Iron Wire set, devoted to internal development. In reality, any complete Chinese martial arts system has both internal and external elements. It is worth noting too that the internal-external classification scheme is of recent vintage, only first being used in the late Qing and Republican Period.

Shaolin versus Wudang
This classification scheme is kind of a mix of the above two with the added spin that some Chinese martial arts are Taoist in origin while others are Buddhist. What the scheme says is essentially that Taoist martial arts owe their origin and development to Taoist adepts living in the Wudang Mountain region. The three major Taoist-Wudang Mountain arts are Xingyi, Bagua and Taijiquan. In contrast, the Buddhist martial arts owe their origin to the Buddhist monks of the Shaolin temple or temples. In this scheme everything that is not specifically a Wudang art is a Shaolin art.
This classification scheme is long on romance and short on reality. While it is true that the Wudang Mountains were home to a great number of Taoist temples it is equally true that none of the three Wudang martial arts were invented there or owe much of their development to that area. Likewise, although there was a Shaolin temple, it is inaccurate to say that is was the birthplace or center of development of all Chinese martial arts that are not one of the three Wudang arts.
This classification scheme was first used by the National Guoshu Academy in the 1920s[/I] [1928 to be exact] way of dividing the many systems of martial arts that were being taught there into two major groups.
How the Wudang branch, consisting of Xingyi, Bagua and Taijiquan, came to be one group is a complicated story. A lot of it has to do with personal friendships between masters and hometown loyalties and links. The bottom line is, a group coalesced in the late 1800s and its members viewed themselves as teachers of Wudang martial arts.
The real basis for this division of Shaolin versus Wudang was simply the formation of a clique that included such luminaries as Sun Lu Tang and Li Cun Yi. They wanted a label to distinguish them and their martial arts systems from other groups and systems. The label itself is arbitrary and the classification scheme is the least informative of the three.
" (http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=13527&view=findpost&p=4855867)

[SIZE=“2”]Although this supports your stance on the division between “internal and external” styles (despite them being just “classifications” as explained above), one must rely solely on the information that is given in the article about the manuals. If they do truly hale from the Song Dynasty, then there was some sort of internal and external martial arts back then, whether it be yin and yang theory or martial arts from within and outside of China.

We cant make conclusions on what these internal and external styles were until the manuals are posted online or are published in a printed source. Maybe the news agency who originally reported this misunderstood something that Master Fan Keping said. We can only speculate at this point.

If someone who writes Chinese can get in contact with the Nanjing Daily or, better yet, Master Fan Keping, Im sure something more can be learned about these manuals.[/SIZE]

Yin Yang theory and Martial Arts Manuscripts

Check out this info from another thread:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42743&page=9

  1. The Yinyang Symbol
    There is no a clear and definite way to determine the exact date of origin or the person who created the popular yinyang symbol. No one has ever claimed specific ownership of this popular image. However, there is a rich textual and visual history leading to its creation. Inspired by a primeval vision of cosmic harmony, Chinese thinkers have sought to codify this order in various intellectual constructions. Whether to formulate this underlying pattern through words and concepts or numbers and visual images has been debated since the Han dynasty. The question first surfaced in the interpretation of the Yijing. The Yijing is constructed around sixty-four hexagrams (gua), each of which is made of six parallel broken or unbroken line segments (yao). Each of the sixty-four hexagrams has a unique designation; its image (xiang) refers to a particular natural object and conveys the meaning of human events and activities. The Yijing thus has generated a special way to decipher the universe. It mainly incorporates three elements: xiang (images), shu (numbers), and li (meanings). They act as the mediators between heavenly cosmic phenomena and earthly human everyday life. From the Han dynasty through the Ming and Qing dynasties (1368-1912 CE), there was a consistent tension between two schools of thought: the school of xiangshu (images and numbers) and the school of yili (meanings and reasoning). At issue between them is how best to interpret the classics, particularly the Yijing. The question often was posed as: “Am I interpreting the six classics or are the six classics interpreting me?”

For the school of Xiangshu the way to interpret the classics is to produce a figurative and numerological representation of the universe through xiang (images) and shu (numbers). It held that xiangshu are indispensable structures expressing the Way of heaven, earth and human being. Thus the school of Xiangshu takes the position that “I interpret the classics” by means of the images and numbers. The emphasis is on the appreciation of classics. The school of Yili, on the other hand, focuses on an exploration of the meanings of the classics on the basis of one’s own reconstruction. In other word, the school of Yili treats all classics as supporting evidence for their own ideas and theories. The emphasis is more on idiosyncratic new theories rather than the explanation of the classics. In what follows, our inquiry focuses on the legacy of the Xiangshu school.

The most common effort of the Xiangshu school was to draw tu (diagrams). Generations of intellectuals labored on the formulation and creation of numerous tu. Tu often delineate structure, place, and numbers through black and white lines. They are not aesthetic objects but rather serve as a means of articulating the fundamental patterns that govern phenomena in the universe. Tu are universes in microcosm and demonstrate obedience to definite norms or rules. During the Song dynasty (960-1279 CE), the Daoist monk Chen Tuan (906-989 CE) made an important contribution to this tradition by drawing a few tu in order to elucidate the Yijing. Though none of his tu were directly passed down, he is considered the forerunner of the school of tushu (diagrams and writings). It is said that he left behind three tu; since his death, attempting to discover these tu has become a popular scholarly pursuit. After Chen Tuan, three trends in making tu emerged, exemplified by the work of three Neo-Confucian thinkers: the Hetu (Diagram of River) and Luoshu (Chart of Luo) ascribed to Liu Mu (1011-1064 CE), the Xiantian tu (Diagram of Preceding Heaven) credited to Shao Yong (1011-1077 CE), and the Taijitu (Diagram of the Great Ultimate) attributed to Zhou Dunyi (1017-1073 CE). These three trends eventually led to the creation of the first yinyang symbol by Zhao Huiqian (1351-1395 CE), entitled Tiandi Zhiran Hetu (Heaven and Earth’s Natural Diagram of the River) and pictured above at the head of this entry.

We can see Chen Tuan (906-989 CE) influence on the school of Tushu. Without his contribution, those works of the three Neo-Confucian thinkers, which made possible for the martial arts community to theorize their systems, would not have happened. BTW, actual evidences of martial arts theories using the Yijing would have come in mid 1500s in books such as the Jian Jing (sword classics) and Jixiao Xinshu (New Book of Record of Efficacy).

Having said that Chen Tuan being hailed as the founder of style such as Baiyuan Tongbei is a rather complicated matter IMHO. It has to do with at least 2 popular Ming dynasty chapter novels - Fei Long Chuan Zhuan (Legends of the Flying Dragon) and Xi You Ji (Journey to the West). In the Fei Long Chuan Zhuan, Chen Tuan is said to have been an immortal helping Song Taizu prior to his ascending to the throne. In the Journey to the West, there’s a mentioning of Tongbei Xin Yuan which became synomonous with Baiyuan Tongbei. No real evidence other then ficticous stories that Chen Tuan knew or practiced martial arts let alone Tongbeiquan.

Just a thought

Mantis108

Thanks for the links. I for one am glad to see that CMA history is going in the direction of scholarly research rather than sticking to the same ol’ myths that have been the norm for so long.

Since we’re on the subject here’s another history article that you guys may of may not have seen:

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ADM/holcom.htm