What eexactly are the differences between the spellings as far as the schools go? When I started I always thought it was just to-may-to/to-mah-to thing but I am learning that there are differences.
They can be significant
I’ve trained in Duncan Leungs group and Leung Tings family. I’ve touched hands with students of many others. I’ve seen videos of just about everyone out there.
I feel the WT system has some important “rules” if you will that make it better, though the techniques aren’t much different. (of course this is irrespective of the students skills/attitude/etc.):
1.WT always goes forward-you don’t turn,tan or whatever first. The whole system is premised upon you going forward with man sau and meeting whatever attack. This may be diagonally or straight in. Ditto for leg deflections.
2.Use of the bong sau-in WT bong sau in ONLY used for cross body mid or low lever pressure. It is only a quick deflection and transition to a punch. WT as I was taught NEVER uses bong sau to block kicks or punches to the face.
3.Formalized training-there are 12 student grades and at each level the student has a specific set of techniques and ideas to learn. This ensures continuity.
4.WT practitioners NEVER pull back their techniques-such as jam sau or tan sau. They Turn their bodies, giving an apperance of the arm pulling back, when in reality the body is turning and the arms are exerting forward pressure.
The last is that WT doesn’t allow for “well its all good if you can make it work.” They will say no, this way of doing things is dangerous or better handled this way. This may seem rigid but it is meant to use only the most effective and efficient techniques in a situation.
That is to say, you can’t violate the above rules.
thanks for the reply…
I have a question or two…
First, what do you mean by pull back? I am not sure I am clear on your meaning here.
Also, can you clarify what you mean by always go forward please?
The 12 steps sounds cool, it gives someone an midea of where they are at, of course that can be dangerous too, just look at local Karate and TKD in a can kwoons and dojos. They sort of push you through the levels and odnt concentrate a whole lot on making sure you get it perfect. It can basically lead to a reward system to encourage people to stick around.
iblis73
I must admit I like the sound of that. Once I get a little more knowledge of my system (Jim Fung) I’d like to discuss some ideas with you. Won’t be for a few months though. 'Til then I’m going to try that turning thing…
I’ll try to explain
Okay, I’ll try to address some points:
Always go forward-when the opponent moves YOU start moving at the same time-you are moving to intercept him. The man sau (asking hand) is your lead arm and goes forward slightly-intending to make contact with some part of the opponent.
For example, the WT pak sau does NOT go sideways-it actually goes forward (think a chain punch then open your palm.) This is much better becuase you are bound to run into you opponents arm-you’re moving towards it.
As for not pulling back its related. I’ve seen some stuff where someone will punch and the WC guy will use a tan sau or jam sau like movement and actually pull back with his arm. In WT is this a big NO NO! The tan/jam saus in WT actually push forward-just like in the form. As an example try a tan sau punch while sitting at your computer-push forward with the tan as you would with the punch. This way your tan can easily turn into a punch just by closing the fingers.
I get a lot of crap for saying that WT is better, and this little things may seem nit-picky. But in a real fight they can get you killed.
Another point
Let me address the turning. Stand in the pigeon toe stance on a straight line. Launch forward into your front stance. TAke your lead foot and slide it back so that it aligns with the rear foot-then pivot your hips and turn.
I hope this illustrates it. As you are turning your hands go forward. So it looks like you are pulling back when in reality your hands go forward while your trunk turns. But only turn as much as your opponent turns you.
Iblis 73
When you say forward pressure, do you mean moving forward?
I used to do some WT and found there is no forward pressure.
When you do Dan Chi Sao is your arm very lightly touching your partners? I’m just trying to see if it is the same sort of thing that I did.
“. I’ve seen some stuff where someone will punch and the WC guy will use a tan sau or jam sau like movement and actually pull back with his arm. In WT is this a big NO NO! The tan/jam saus in WT actually push forward-just like in the form. As an example try a tan sau punch while sitting at your computer-push forward with the tan as you would with the punch. This way your tan can easily turn into a punch just by closing the fingers.”
First of all there are many styles of Wing Chun out there, which one are you refering to? Second, what do you mean by pulling back? In Yip man style when we do Chi sao (which also trains your blocks, not just sensitivity) you sometimes can try to punch from a tan sao or fuk sao (meaning just pushing forward) and you are suppose to prevent this by having the right angle and forward pressure with the block. I found Chi sao really helped position my blocks in the correct position, and about pulling back as you mention I have no idea what your talking about unless its a different style. Or do you mean pulling back as in using your opponents force to counter-attack? But ive never done that with a basic block.
I’ll try to elaborate
Okay, I need to elaborate.
1.Forward pressure-there’s actually 2 components. In Wt forward pressure means pushing forward. If you and your partner are doing 2 armed chi sau and you drop your hands suddenly his should be right on you-no lapse, no “oh you dropped your hands so I should go forward.” Its like someone pushing against you with a punch and you have an open palm against his fist-you both push forward, if one withdraws (or drops) the hand the other’s will be coming forward. Basically what alien of war is talking about-pressure.
Its really hard to explain in words.
While we worked for a light touch in WT, Emin used to say your chi sau had to be hard and aggressive at first-this builds structure. Here are a couple of drills:
One man stands against the wall and does chi sao with another guy (who obviously isn’t against the wall.) The guy against the wall has double fook sau or double bong sau. The guy who isn’t against the wall uses palm strikes to hit the guy on the wall. Of course the guy on the wall defends with just jam or his bong.
Do some double arm chi sau (just the rolling-no attacks.)Stop and freeze the position. Have one guy push forward with a punch while the the other defends (basic jam or fook sau defense) but do it HARD and SLOW. Try to make the other guys structure collapse.
Pulling back
When I said pulling back, I meant exactly that! Their tan sau physically pulls back towards their body. The only tehcnique I can remember pulling back was the lap sau.
I think you guys have the same ideas and concepts from what you’ve written. I’m starting to realize how hard it is to describe WT with words.
Forward pressure numero dos
Okay, forward pressure is not only with the hands, BUT WITH THE WHOLE BODY. During reaction drills the difference between beginners and advanced students was terrific-as the partner would punch at the student, the beginners would wait and “react” to it. The advanced students MOVED on your ass as soon as started to punch or come after them.
As you made contact with the partner, you hammered away with punches WHILE CONTSTANTLY MOVING INTO HIM. I found that in training people tend to go forward, then stop and try to deliver a barrage of blows. You have to make them aware of how to get their bodies constantly going forward into the opponent (ie creating pressure in a more general sense.)
Interesting what you said about trying to make the other persons structure collapse.
With the WC style I do now thats what we do all the time (except not against a wall).
With the W.T that I did the focus was on being as soft as possible with no forward pressure. They often said use forward intent with your mind, but there was no physical pressure, like what you are describing.
Is what you are describing exclusive to Emins way of teaching?
I don’t thing so
Actually it shocks me that you say a WT person would say forward state of mind but not pressure. That won’t work! Emins seminars were always hard: let me empasize I used to train when he first came to the states, and did he ever put the fear of god into us.
At one seminar everyone who knew chi sao partnered up. We did poon sau-Just the rolling mind you, with constant forward pressure, for 30 MINUTES! Before he started the watch he said in his meanes voice: “anyone drops their arms, I kick you out of the seminar personally.” No one dropped their arms.
Which is interesting to note: We forced/focused ourselves to do it. Its not impossible, even on a daily basis. Sometimes you need guidance.
Sorry, I’m on a tangent now. But no, all the WT guys I know use heavy forward pressure. I’d be curious to know who doesn’t, their gonna be toast against someone who does have it.
As a rule you dont use forward pressure in WT. But rely instead on forward intent which is different.
But no rules without exemptions, so if you are able to simply overpower the guy, thats fine too.
The tricky part about forward intent is that it takes a looooong time to develope, and many people never get it right.
forward intention
i’ve always been taught in WT that it was forward intention, starting from the mind, that the mind always wants the body to hit. chi sau is supposed to be soft. how can you be sticky when you’re too busy maintaining some overtly muscular structure?
honestly, everytime i touch hands with someone who is tense or is trying to use pressure on me, they might as well drop their hands, because they either completely focus on being strong or they press so far i that they have no base or root. if you’re trying to press forward with your whole body, the second someone uses that force and allows it to turn them is the same second that you’re going to fall forward and land face-first into the floor.
what’s even more fun to do to someone who’s trying to apply pressure instead of just thinking of going forward is to lap sau one of their tense arms and let the whole body follow. what i mean is, if you tug hard on the limb of a rigid person, the whole body falls in the direction of the tug. however, if the limb is relaxed and not trying to tense up in any way, the arm just goes but the body stays relaxed. this is especially important to students new to chi sau when they learn first attack and try to fight you locking their arm out by being rigid. if they do, just tug their arm and when their whole body moves with it, put the free palm through their chin and make them try again.
honestly, any amount of physical force you give a good wing tsun or wing chun or ving tsun player will be used against you in the most uncomfortable ways possible. i’ve heard this poon sau called “bull poon sau” before, and to me, this goes against a lot of WT (and WC/VT) for that matter. we’re not supposed to be the bulls. never were. neither ng mui nor yim wing chun was a bull, and that’s why they found it important to have a style that didn’t rely on brute strength. instead of being the bull, be the matador, and as your bull runs up, get out of the way by turning or stepping and give him the goods as he comes in.
forward pressure
Here’s my take on WT forward pressure:
You exert enough forward pressure to establish the intent of going forward. For a beginner, one may need a lot of forward pressure to convince oneself that the intent is there. As you get better and develop better contact sensitivity, the amount of forward pressure you physically exert is lessened. Most of the high-level Sifu’s in WT are very very soft in their forward pressure. This prevents an attacker from using your arms as levers to destabilize the stance.
I have also been to Emin’s seminars, and the drills we did emphasized strength. But when you chi sao with Emin, it’s like you’re chi-saoing air. Wing Chun (referring to the essense of the art) is a soft style - using technique to overcome strength. To give lots of forward pressure is to use force and is against the fundamental principle of wing chun.
There is one thing that don’t add up in the posts in this thread?When I trained WT I noticed that the more skilled the person you touched hands with, the softer he/she felt! It was like they didn’t need forward pressure, like any pressure at all was a giveaway that they capitalized on.
Whats the experience of other WT practitioners?
To Nichiren
You said:
"There is one thing that don’t add up in the posts in this thread?When I trained WT I noticed that the more skilled the person you touched hands with, the softer he/she felt! It was like they didn’t need forward pressure, like any pressure at all was a giveaway that they capitalized on. "
I totally agree. If you are giving lots of forward pressure, you are overcommiting your weight, and a skilled practitioner will use that force very easily against you. The more rigid you are with your arms, the more your arm acts as a handle to your entire body.
The reason we still need a very slight forward pressure is to make sure we are using time to our advantage. What puts WT/WC over other traditional martial arts is that we don’t need to recoil or pull back to give another attack. If the opponent obstruct our hands, we stick to the opponent. At the instant they withdraw, the forward pressure/intent shoots our weapons forward without any conscious decision.
We were taught to be very hard with our structure and have lots of forward pressure to begin with. Its important to develop this and THEN go soft as you advance. Much harder to start soft and go hard.
who’s going hard?
now THAT sounds really bad, but iblis asked for it.
anyhoo, i don’t think the idea is to ever actually “be hard” at any time. period. naturally people learning the structure and sensitivity will not have a developed sense of softness and will be a bit more rigid. but as they begin to understand chi sau and develop their skills, the softness will hopefully come through.
and i know exactly what you mean by softness, novox. all the senior students i’ve touched hands with make it feel like i’m going up against a cloud of smoke – one that hits pretty darn hard, too. that’s how it should be: soft, unresisting and overwhelming at the first sign of an opening.