I have been taught quite a few locks / throws / grabs in the system. Most grabs are to body parts and not clothing, although im sure some techniques work when applied to clothing. The main grabbing points that my sifu emphasises are wrist/hands/throat. Many take down techniques are done without grabbing and with open hands while locking a limb. I find the takedowns in pak mei more practical than the one in judo which i have also studied when i was younger. This is probably because nearly every takedown that i have learnt involves really damaging some part of the body on the way down, arm / kneck / back / wrist / shoulder / throat etc and are pretty nasty.
I am pretty crap at some of the locks though and find that if the technique isnt spot on then i start trying to use my own strength which isnt correct.
WLF
lol
Bak Mei has throws, sweeps, reeps, locks and levers. It has ground fighting but only very basic and not as much as BJJ but still should ge you out of a situation. Standing arms and leg lokcs, chokes and strangles, takedowns and submissions.
I think alot of the bak mei teachers either didnt go far into grappling within there art or choose not to fight using it!
But it is there!
FT
Tao Yin, you mentioned that there is religion taught in this style. Is it necessary to learn it? I think that a sifu would risk getting sued for religious discrimination if he or she forced a student to be of a particular religion. Thanks in advance.
Wow, this thread is really taking off with some great info comming forth, thank you bak mei guys! As I said I am rarley on the southern board but find some good threads often enough.
Tit Sa,
I think maybe you misinterperated my meaning or perhaps I was’nt clear in my statement. I simply meant that kung fu is the mother of all asian martial arts and the subsiteraries of them are born from chinese influence. I did not mean that bjj is jujitsu or bak mei is shuia chiao but simply a version from the original. i.e there was no karate in japan before the chinese influence of such arts. This was my point, people make crazy assumptions about things in which they fail to see the whole picture. Peace.
Tao Yin,
thank you for the compliment on my site, a college student one of my kung fu students did it and it to me could be a little more tradtional but people seem to like it reguardless.
I have met mimi and master chan pui on different occasions and they seem very nice and have a lot of talent in many area’s.
I do know that wah lum mantis is more of a flashy type of mantis, not to take away from it but 8 step is much more combative and fight oriented. It has much more of a combat approach than any other mantis systems. It is actually a high brid of 7 * with ba gua foot work added to give it better attacking angles that work more effeciently in combat.
The video you saw might have been my teacher’s teacher, Wei Xiao Tung he was a heavy man but could move like the wind and extremly famous in the nothern part of china as well as taiwan where he lived.
I do not want to take to much time away from this thread to talk about mantis but would be happy to answer any questions you have about it.
Yes you did help me a lot and I appreciate it very much. Take care ED…
Tit Sa stated;
"Are you saying BJJ has a type of fighting only effective against BJJ?
Fighting is fighting. If you say bak mei has different ground grappling then what does it resemble? Judo? wrestling?
I have seen a lot of different styles of day sut, and none of them have highly technical grappling work, such as BJJ or judo.
If you say bak mei has this then please enlighten me on the tactics and strategies of it’s groundfighting."
No, I’m not saying that at all. I was simply saying that BJJ is BJJ, they specialize in groundfighting. Jujutsu is Jujutsu, Judo is Judo, Wrestling is Wrestling…they all have their own respective specialities. Some of the styles are more “well rounded” than the others, and some are not. Yes, again, this all depends on the practitioner. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. However, realistically, grappling is grappling no matter how you look at it. Sure, a BJJer might be more effective at using this move or that move, a Judoer might be more effective at using this move or that move, a Wrestler might be more effective at using this move or that move, but at the end of the day, with regards to grappling, the practitioner is either using submission joint locks, ground and pound, or getting bashed.
At the beginning of a form, the first stance across the board of CMA, is the neutral stance (standing upright with the feet together or close to together). Now picture a person in guard, or better yet, just laying down. Doing an arm bar is similar to standing upright with your hands down and relaxed. The only difference is that you are awkwardly lying on your back, using your hands to “python” the opponents arm, and extending your legs to get leverage for the break. Can you picture this? The MAIN difference is that you are lying down. Now of course, this is reading in to the form a bit, and I am sure this is not traditionally what that specific move was used for, but still, your imagination makes the art, if not then its not an art. The thing about a form is, every move, inside every move, inside every move, means, or can mean something. Get a partner and try some of your moves from your forms in guard, look at the circular moves, you will be suprised. Someone said earlier that Bak Mei doesn’t have much Chin-Na??? I mean, how so? A circular movement within any system can easily be transformed into a lock, a throw, and all that I stated about it earlier. Again it is up to the person studying the art. Everything becomes Everything, and Nothing becomes Nothing, and everything at the same time. The Bagua goes in all directions whether the practitioner is standing, sitting, in guard, or in mount, or well…you get the point. Those who blindly follow their Sifu’s without questioning every aspect of the game will not get very far.
Yes, fighting is fighting, a Bak Mei person on the ground grappling looks like a Bak Mei person on the ground grappling. Sure Bak Mei has techniques that were traditionally designed for the basics of groundfighting, but that is beside the point. That should be the obvious aspect of the art. They should be trying to win by whatever means necessary. Again, at the base of it all, grappling is grappling. In the end, it is up to you, or the practitioner, to take the art to wherever he or she wants to take it.
Lastly, On your mentioning of day sut. You said you have seen a lot of different styles of day sut…It seems to me that you have seen a lot of different styles of everything…So, I am sure that with your vast knowledge you will be able to understand everything that I posted above without question…
Phantom,
The religious influences on Bak Mei are both Taoist and Buddhist. Again, it is up to the student, and in this case, the teacher to see how far or how short they want to take it or delve into it.
Pak Mei,
On the grabbing of the shirt thing, I totally understand where you are coming from; however, I think you should look a bit deeper.
Fiercest Tiger, LOWLY, Earth Dragon, EVERYONE above, and anyone else I left out…HAPPPPPPPPPPY WEEEKEND!!!
Have fun,
Tao
I’d think any reputable martial art will have aspects of it that will touch on all fight ranges and situations. However, some will specialize on some of these aspects more than others. For instance, Judo has great throws and groundwork, but its locks are not as extensive and its strikes are rudimentary. On the other hand, an art like Wing CHun will be excellent in strikes close-in, its particular forte, but its locks and throws, although existant, will not be as extensive or emphasized as Shuai Jiao or aikido. So it’s really sloppy thinking to say that martial Art X has NO ground work or strikes or locks or whatever, likewise its equally sloppy thinking (for example) to say that martial art Y that specializes in strikes has locks and throws on par with martial art Z, which may be one that specializes in locks and throws. I think the real masters, true bada$$es of any art, are the ones that can, not necessarily do everything, but deal with everything thrown at them, and is good at not playing their opponent’s game but making the opponent play his own.
Anyway, that’s my rambling. This is a great thread so far tho - lot’s of great info and discussion and everyone civil and respectful of various POVs.
TAO YIN
“Now of course, this is reading in to the form a bit, and I am sure this is not traditionally what that specific move was used for, but still, your imagination makes the art, if not then its not an art.”
Yes I agree. I think I should have said “traditionally” bak mei has moves that weren’t “traditionally” used as locks throws etc. I had some experience in jiujitsu and can see many possiblities as chin-na locks.
But on the other hand, I don’t think that was how it’s traditionlly taught either.
Bak mei in my opinion, is more of a striking art. A striking art that equals the very best and superior to most.
Tit sa
I don’t think anything is like bjj on the ground because that is it’s specialty. But it does have moves that can be interpreted as grappling and locks.
Tiger Hand stated;
“Bak mei in my opinion, is more of a striking art. A striking art that equals the very best and superior to most.”
Definitely!! I agree! Bak Mei is all about using some short power strikes for bashing.
Tao
ttt
earthdragon
I presume the “bigger picture” would also include india and africa?
does bak mei ONLY use the phoenix fist punch-wise?
are there bak mei styles that DON’T use it at all?
In my style of pak mei the pheonix eye is used but not exclusively, or even predominately. We use palm strikes, ridge hands, fingers, claws,normal fist, dragon fist, wrist, leopard punch, thumb knuckle etc. The single knuckle pheonix eye is only one weapon in the arsenal. Perhaps my sifu will introduce its usage more as my hands become more conditioned i dont know. It has alot of potential to seriously damage an opponent, but is useless unless your hands are properly conditioned and the fist held correctly.
Also i learned the normal fist for several years before even being shown how to form the single knuckle fist.
Does anyone ever use the thumb knuckle held with an open palm to strike to areas such as under the nose? (palm facing up, like throwing a frisbee)i like it!
Cheers
WLF
so does this mean you are only doing the normal fist now until you get better and then you use the phoenix fist? or si the normal fist a proper fist in and of itself in the system and not just as a training aid to lead up to the phoenix?
how do you throw the normal fist? Is it vertical or horizontal? How do the hips/waist move? What about the stance/feet?
thanks
Ok, The fist is a seperate technique and not just an aid to Pheonix eye punching IMHO. We have seperate conditioning consisting mainly of push ups on the two striking knuckles. the punch can be thrown from all different stances but for training purposes we usually practice from horse. The punch is thrown from the upwards fist position elbows tucked in, and twisted so it is in a downwards fist position on impact. The other fist comes back to an upwards position in a typical pak mei fashion. This is not like the wing chun chain punch where the fists are vertical. we then train moving and punching from forward or reverse positions, but the punch can also be thrown from backstance. There is usully a slight sink and rise for the power which is accompianed by a small waist movement. There is a very small travelling distance but alot of power can be generated if wrist and body allignment are correct. Regarding the power generation i am only learning so perhaps my definition will change as i progress.
Cheers
Wlf
A note on whitelotusfist post:
This is not like the wing chun chain punch where the fists are vertical.
The vertical chain punching fist for developmental purposes.
Ther are many other fists in wing chun- including the phoenix eye-used in wing chun style and structure.
On forums we too often compare styles by seeing tips of icebergs.
Priorities
Hello,
I was taught that there is absolutely no point in practicing with a phoenix eye fist unless you were willing to devote the many months and years to conditioning your hand / finger to withstand the impact of this technique.
Bak Mei and Lung Ying principles easily stand with or without use of this very difficult application - it is not for everyone. I personally feel the grabbing and controlling techniques to be more important - and training time better spent. However, for those willing to invest the time and energy…then I guess you will have somthing that most do not - not sure exactly what that might be, but anyway…
Might it be bak mei how it should be?
Might be you be getting jipped cos your teacher doesn’t want you to know how to use a phoenix?
I mean seriously one could have a useable phoenix after a few months of conditioning and being shown HOW TO USE IT. Even a phoenix that has not been conditioned hard can be used effectivly if used correctly.
yuanfen - on forums we too often run into stupid people. He was using it as a descriptive example. Get a grip and go back to the wing chun forum.
Well I feel better…
LN.
Originally posted by Lowlynobody
[B]Might it be bak mei how it should be?
Might be you be getting jipped cos your teacher doesn’t want you to know how to use a phoenix?
[/B]
Hey Lowly, did you know your Si Gung wouldn’t teach Fung ahn Choi (Phoenix fist) to people for several years? And, he didn’t like seeing it in the Kwoon. Lots of Sifu don’t believe in teaching it to novices - perhaps that is the way its supposed to be?
Or, perhaps that is the way it once was?
ying ching
Yum Cha is right for once …hehehe Actually sifu leung cheung wouldnt show it on tung jee kuen, but sup jee you would learn it. I teach it from day one unless the student cannot hold a proper fist to start with.
FT:D deaaaaath