The art of Mimicry

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Ive read that we are more confident what we imitate than in what we originate.

I visited a new martial arts school in town. Tae kwon do. I was told that most of my techniques were incorrect and innefective. Likely because I stopped training traditionally years ago. Most of my moves are modified for competition’s sake. I asked “don’t you believe in improvising a bit for efficiency, or simply to put your own spin on something for fun?” He said NO. NEVER. He said he believes in using all traditional stances and techniques, even during a fight. And that I would also have to do this to train at his school. I was extremely disappointed in his inability to even hear me speak. I’m not trying to tell him how to run his business, but he successfully drove me away from his school.

I told him that in any full contact tae kwon do match this strategy would get him destroyed. Just because some man, at some point in time, decided to do a technique a certain way, he refuses to acknowlege the competetive sport that tae kwon do has evolved to. To acknowlege tradition is great, but to ignore change seems stubborn and ignorant. Is it any surprise that they don’t spar at anything more than light contact?

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Re: The art of Mimicry

Originally posted by morbicid
I told him that in any full contact tae kwon do match this strategy would get him destroyed.

LOL! So you found a tae kwon do teacher who isn’t interested in sport, and you’re complaining?!?!

The fact that the guy expected you to do it his way, instead of bending over backwards to get another student to pay him, says more about his training philosophy than anything else.

So you disagree. Big deal. Dosen’t mean you’re right, or better. Sport tae kwon do is easy to find. Ditto for a McDojo that’ll tell you whatever you want to hear for the right price.

A traditional martial arts school? Now that’s a rare gem.

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“Big deal. Dosen’t mean you’re right, or better. Sport tae kwon do is easy to find”

That was my biggest problem with him. He insisted that I was “wrong”. Why does someone who is different have to be “wrong”. I respect his honoring of tradition, but he ignores the sport. And he does not respect my way of training.

Being in the military, I’ve travelled a lot now. Other schools, traditional or not, that I’ve trained with are more open to the different kinds of students who come and go, and the different ideals they have as a martial artist. It seems to make for a better exchange of ideas thoughout. Sort of like this forum.

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Re: The art of Mimicry

Originally posted by morbicid
I was told that most of my techniques were incorrect and innefective. Likely because I stopped training traditionally years ago. Most of my moves are modified for competition’s sake.

Okay. You were there and we weren’t. But I can’t help but play a little devil’s advocate, if for no other reason than the simple fact that most of the changes made in tae kwon do for the sake of sport really have made it much less effective than it traditionally was.

For example, when was the last time you saw a tae kwon do competition where the fighters kicked to the knee? What about the head? What about the groin? What about head butts, knees and elbows, joint locks, and (gasp) effective punches? All of these things are in the traditional syllabus. So why aren’t the sport “fighters” using them? Could it be because such techniques aren’t allowed in competition?

Maybe the guy was a jerk, but I think he has a point. I can definately empathize with traditionalists who critisize what’s going on with martial arts today. My own beloved Aikido is full-to-bursting with airy fairy, tie dye wearin’, patchouli stinkin’, ki projectin’, nonesense spoutin’ practitioners who’ve dumbed down an extremly effective martial art and given it a bad name. They don’t get what the founder was trying to do at all, and their misunderstanding has led to alot of watering down.

God, someday little old ladies’ll be doing Aikido at the YMCA, and kindergarteners will be getting blackbelts in Tae Kwon Do! Er… wait… just a minute…

(Gets off soapbox, straightens tie, walks away shaking head)

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that was a funny paragraph about aikido :slight_smile: how do u feel about what steven seagal (spelling?) has done / not done for the martial art ???

I suppose you’re right regarding the lack of realistic techniques in sport tae kwon do ( such as leg kicks/ hand techniques/ etc). But wouldn’t you agree that never sparring or competing with anything more than light contact is a bit hippocrytical for such a “traditional” school ? If they’re traditional techniques are more effective, why don’t they show me with some contact sparring ? Not a fight, just a friendly sparring match. When they spar, they barely touch each other and it’s basically all pretend. At least the sport competitions, the full contact aspect lets you experience how to block/ evade/ attack an opponent who’s moving with real intent to hit.

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My POV.

Firstly, if you sign up to train somewhere you shouldn’t argue with the teacher. If you don’t respect the teacher then don’t bother signing up.

Secondly, Tae Kwon Do is mostly crap. Move on to something better whether that is Kung Fu, Traditional Karate, Muy Thai or what have you.

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I disagree that TKD is crap. It’s actually quite demanding and there are many reputable teachers of it.

The same could be said for anything really. There’s crap kungfu out there, crap karate, crap mma, you name it and there is a crap version of it somewhere being played out as I type this.

But, that doesn’t mean it’s all crap.

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All in due time.

True. Everyone may have his or her own intepretations, expressions and functionalities in just about everything in life and not the least in MA.

If you go to a cooking school, this is how is done by the teacher chef. Fine, learn his style well and dissecting every ingredient of it.

When you are done with the lessons well in the classes.

The time to incorporate your own flavor will come.

I studied Tang Tui, Mantis, Tong Bei long before Tai Ji and Ba gua.

I have to resist every temptation to voice a different oppinion just about everything.

I started with standing stances and steps. Everything starts over.

Overtime, I picked up something totally different from before.

People may tend to critize what they are learning. Take a note. Try to understand why the teacher said a certain thing in a certain way. The reason why.

This is the way the teacher thinks how to be done and why.

That is the way you think that would be better. Put it in notes.

Resolve the differences by yourself. If the teacher is not open to discuss. May be the time is later.

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Originally posted by Kung Lek
[B]I disagree that TKD is crap. It’s actually quite demanding and there are many reputable teachers of it.

The same could be said for anything really. There’s crap kungfu out there, crap karate, crap mma, you name it and there is a crap version of it somewhere being played out as I type this.

But, that doesn’t mean it’s all crap. [/B]

Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree then. I agree that there are crappy versions of each art. But I’ve yet to see any Tae Kwon Do that I didn’t eventually come to think was crap. Also, I’ve seen most people (including myself) move out of Tae Kwon Do eventually in favor of other arts.

Tae Kwon Do is a good art for kids, mostly because IMO it is not as practical and there is less chance of them hurting someone. It teaches them some flexibility, discipline and foundational stances. But if you are serious about MA I think that eventually you would move on to something that is more challenging and more practical.

Just my 2 cents.

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I would definetly agree that 90 % of the tkd schools out there are total garbage. Since moving away from Ny, I’ve looked everywhere for a good school, but it’s all money and babysitting people’s kids. I’ve been in and out of tkd schools for over 10 yrs now.

However, before you rule out tkd entirely, I would advise taking a look at the olympic style sparring ( steven lopez, juan moreno, etc. ). Did you see any of the olympic games last year?

here is are some decent clips of tkd sparring:
http://www.darshantkd.com/Adam.htm
not great/ but pretty good.
generally, it’s the guys who are creative, and who stray away from the traditional approach who get anywhere in competitions. Freakish speed doesn’t hurt either :slight_smile:

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Well if your new teacher is telling you that you do everything all wrong than there is a simple way to solve that problem. Respectfully and politely ask him to cross hands with you. If you win than the teacher may not have had anything to teach you anyway. If you lose however be prepared to admit that you were doing it all wrong and to eat some serious humble pie.:smiley:

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so quick to talk shit about something is not indicative of tkd being crappy. :stuck_out_tongue:

:rolleyes:

You can’t tell me that tkd is not a good workout and that their kicking is ineffective.

If it was so crappy, it wouldn’t be an olympic sport (which means olympic level athletic training which would shame a lot of people here including many a sensei and sifu)

people are so quick to get on the negative gang rape bandwagon about something.

I did tkd for 4 years, it was good and I got a lot out of it.
Complaining about schools and methods will only get you a big bag of complaints. It doesn’t take you forward anywhere.

so either of you actually train tkd for any longer than it took you to decide to leave and hop on over tyo something else?

pffft.

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Originally posted by morbicid
[B]I would definetly agree that 90 % of the tkd schools out there are total garbage. Since moving away from Ny, I’ve looked everywhere for a good school, but it’s all money and babysitting people’s kids. I’ve been in and out of tkd schools for over 10 yrs now.

However, before you rule out tkd entirely, I would advise taking a look at the olympic style sparring ( steven lopez, juan moreno, etc. ). Did you see any of the olympic games last year?

No I didn’t get a chance to.

here is are some decent clips of tkd sparring:
http://www.darshantkd.com/Adam.htm
not great/ but pretty good.
generally, it’s the guys who are creative, and who stray away from the traditional approach who get anywhere in competitions. Freakish speed doesn’t hurt either :slight_smile: [/B]

Thanks for the clips. It gives us something tangible to discuss.

What I see in those clips is pretty indicative of what I see in most TKD. NO HANDS!!!

If you look at most kung fu styles there is a balance of 50/50 hand strkes to foot strikes up to 99/1 hand strikes to foot strikes .

The reason I think is that hands are simply faster than feet and you can do more with them. In addition, you can use your hands without comprimising your balance. The same can’t be said of kicks.

I’ve seen some very fast kickers and it’s good to have fast hands and fast feet but I think that your hands have a greater potential for speed and effectiveness.

Just my 2 cents.

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My guess is you probbaly didn’t quite understand what he said. I"m getting from your post that this guy claims he fights EXACTLY how he trains but I highly doubt it.

Secondly, Tae Kwon Do is mostly crap. Move on to something better whether that is Kung Fu, Traditional Karate, Muy Thai or what have you.

ah, to count the ways your an idiot Fu Pow…but I’ll try:

1 - "But I’ve yet to see any Tae Kwon Do that I didn’t eventually come to think was crap. "

I’m sure you’re an expert TKD artist who has spent a lot of time studying TKD…

2 - “Tae Kwon Do is a good art for kids, mostly because IMO it is not as practical and there is less chance of them hurting someone”

So trying to explain why you think TKD sucks, you again use your opinion as proof? Just like #1 above?

3 - “But if you are serious about MA I think that eventually you would move on to something that is more challenging and more practical.”

Where to start? how about - so simple equates to crappy? interesting. And TKD isn’t a challenge? I’d challenge you to join a good TKD school and see if that doesn’t change.

4 - "What I see in those clips is pretty indicative of what I see in most TKD. NO HANDS!!!

Ah yes a basic and misunderstood complaint about TKD. Frankly, I know 3 TKD students who don’t need to use their hands to win most fights they get into. They are that fast and that good with them. Of course they work a hell of a lot at being that good. Imagine that, the quality of their skill is directly related to how hard they work.

5 - "If you look at most kung fu styles there is a balance of 50/50 hand strkes to foot strikes up to 99/1 hand strikes to foot strikes . "

I know a couple that arent’ even close to 50/50

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There are many schools of MA using the feet more.

Afro-Brazillian Capoeria.

Shadowless flying kicks or Wu Ying Jiao from Huang Fei Hong.

Chuo Jiao school, the hands are used as secondary to assist the feet attacks. They have hands down and jump kicks to your chin and many other flying kicks.

Chuo Jiao means stabbing feet.

On and on.

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A link to Chuo Jiao;

A Link

A lot of kickings at shin, sweeping the feet or Sao Tui, facing the back as if retreating and hind kick in your face, on and on.

:cool:

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By the way;

How many kicking methods in TKD?

:smiley:

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ah, to count the ways your an idiot Fu Pow…but I’ll try:

You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to call me an idiot. As another martial artist are you challenging my martial knowledge and my character? Do you wish to proceed with that challenge?

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Originally posted by SPJ
[B]There are many schools of MA using the feet more.

Afro-Brazillian Capoeria.

Shadowless flying kicks or Wu Ying Jiao from Huang Fei Hong.

Chuo Jiao school, the hands are used as secondary to assist the feet attacks. They have hands down and jump kicks to your chin and many other flying kicks.

Chuo Jiao means stabbing feet.

On and on. [/B]

On and on? Or the exceptions that proves the rule? I think the latter.

Of the 300 or so CMAs MOST do not focus primarily on kicking for what I believe are the reasons that I have mentioned. Some northern styles include kicking in an approximately 50/50 ratio. Usually those kicks are done in combination with hand strikes. Southern styles rely even more on hands over kicks.

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You are not entitled to call me an idiot

I am, have and probably will continue to do so.

Do you wish to proceed with that challenge?

Telephone tough guy eh? I gave you your chance, you decided to throw up the usual internet tough guy arguments. Chicago is a nice enough city to visit on its own, I’m giving you an excuse to fly over and check out the city and prove to atleast two members of KFM that you are as tough as you say you are. My guess is you’ll choke on it and rely on the age old excuse that it’s not worth the travel/money to make the trip.
That’s ok with me though. I don’t think you have half of what you think you do, as your knowledge of the martial arts indicates. Otherwise, I’ll be in Chicago and hopefully meeting up with WD for a beer on saturday night. You want to “knock someone the fukk out” I suggest you step up and stop talking like pansy. You want to play for points do it on your own time. You want to show me you can fight, then come do so.