Yang Fool,
Thanks for the link. A classmate of mine has the same sword. I was thinking of getting the natural color sword from the same maker (Paul Chen). Have you had any problems with the gaurd? I’ve read on other Forums that the guards are done poorly. I didn’t see any problem with the one my classmate owns.
thanks.
No guard problems here. However they don’t get any rough usage. We give them a little contact when shown the application for a particular part of the form but no hard sparring.
Sashes
Actually, the tassel lanyard theory does address sashes. Tassels were considered a dressy version of sashes for lanyards in European swords. Military presentation swords were usually the ones to bear tassels. In fact, that’s the origin of sword knots. But for street fights, they used kerchiefs and sashes. If you read Aldo Nadi’s book, On Fencing, he describes fighting a duel of honor with live blades. He relates how they tied his weapon in with a kerchief to serve as a lanyard and to protect the arteries of the wrist.
Ah, but that does not apply to a battlefield. And I did say that I may be so used to the idea of the wushu sashes that there may be other versions I am not used to. Sword practitioners really need to practice with the sash on the sword to tell if they find it practical or not.
Another point is that you are discussing a European context. Are you aware of any Chinese technical period manuals that address tassels and sashes?
Nevertheless, you will not use a sash the same way you use a tassel. Although I tend to disregard sashes, your point about wrapping it around the wrist is the only one I consider usable. As I tried to tie a sash to my wrist, the material gave more trouble than aid. Perhaps I did it all wrong. I found the wushu sash too restrictive. Other theories abound about how to use a sash in battle, but I find those silly (be it to strike at an enemy, confuse him, or wipe blood from a blade). I would even posit that the tassel on the long-handled weapons, such as the yinyuedao (Guan Dao), are more of a distraction than a benefit (but, hey, what experience do I ahve to others with years and years behind them in terms of cutting?). In my experience, cutting with a paul Chen pudao showed how the tassel got in the way of things and could get caught on clothing or armor. Granted, I was targeting tree branches (perhaps not historically accurate targets), but the idea is still the same.
Scott Rodell at www.swordforum.com is great for helpful information about sashes and tassels. He sells antiques and has examined over two thousand swords from the Ming and Qing eras. Philip Tom is another excellent source there. Those guys make the Chinese sword forum a great place (along with others of course).
Doug M
I don’t find the idea of using the FLAGS on a broadsword as a wrap for the wrist…and possibly a lanyard that unrealistic.
One thing that people commonly do is look at how things appear or how they connect and infer use from that.
If you were to find the flags for a Dao useless in combat…yet were to have a use for them in cleaning the blade…and oiling it after use… where would you carry such a flag? Stuff it in your pack with everything else…where you couldn’t get to it…or would you simply tie it to the Dao and remove it as needed?
Given that I know old generation people that have stated they ALWAYS had a flag or rag with them when practicing Dao…and usually it had some form of light oil on it… They would then clean the blade when finished with practice so it wouldn’t rust.
If you have one of the older swords or have seen them (I had the opportunity to examine and work with a set of double Daos that dated back to Boxer Rebellion times…and the blade was better metal than the Lungchuan ones of today no doubt…but they would have rusted just as easily…
Anyway, those Lungchuan blades get some real rust grunge on them from sweat if you don’t clean them…
I would also not find it unreasonable for a person to wrap their wrist for protection before battle. one less open part as a target. A flag taken off of the Dao just prior to would serve for this as well.
All conjecture…
Of course it could just be that someone somewhere sometime thought…“I want to make it more artsy-****sy…let me put a flag on it…” And if that was the case…big hairy deal. So you WOULDN’T use it that way in combat…but you WOULD in performing a routine. Taolu have techniques that train the body, train balance, train use, some that commemorate a hero or battle, and…heaven forbid…even some that provide a NICE looking transition between sections.
As many have pointed out, Taolu may help applications…but forms are NOT fighting.
pudao
Doug, you raise the big fly in the ointment of my theory - the tassels on halberds. Now, these are significantly different in design to the tassels on swords, but my theory cannot address these at this time. One possiblity might be that it’s just a reflection of what was happening with the swords, sort of a parallel accoutrement but only for decor. Another one that I’ve herad postulated is that they were used to secure adorning rings when the weapon bearer wanted to be stealthy. I don’t particularly abide by this, and it raises another separate question about why the rings were even there in the first place.
As for the oil/blood rag, well, have you ever worked with bloody rags or oily rags? They’re really messy. You’re not going to want to tie that to your handle. That would defeat the whole point. If anything, you want to keep the blood/oil off your handle, so tying it to the pommel is the second stupidest place to put such a rag beyond wrapping it around the grip.
Originally posted by GLW
One thing that people commonly do is look at how things appear or how they connect and infer use from that.
Right, which is my point above. Students should try this out for themselves to prove to themselves if it really works. Of course, they need accurate swords, not the spring steel or wushu steel stuff. Only then will truth for the student come out.
[B]
Given that I know old generation people that have stated they ALWAYS had a flag or rag with them when practicing Dao…and usually it had some form of light oil on it… They would then clean the blade when finished with practice so it wouldn’t rust.[/B]
From what generation? After the Boxer Rebellion, I take it? Much was disoriented and distorted from that point into the new century, so even the old generation can only accurately reproduce things so mcuh. Certainly, I am generalizing quite well, and I mean no offense to your old teachers. What I am saying, though, is that without historical proof, such as from period manuals, it is, as you say, theory.
[B]
I would also not find it unreasonable for a person to wrap their wrist for protection before battle. one less open part as a target. A flag taken off of the Dao just prior to would serve for this as well.[/B]
O.K. All I say is that, when I have tried it with more accurate swords, the sash was more of a burden or pointless attempt to secure it to my wrist. I am not talking about tassels though.
And of the Qing dao I have seen, there have been no places to tie a sash (unless it was tied around the handle, which is, perhaps, silly). I will try to post a picture here. I would check out www.swordfroum.com for some good discussions on this topic.
Doug M
Re: pudao
Originally posted by GeneChing
Doug, you raise the big fly in the ointment of my theory - the tassels on halberds.
Yeah, I don’t know about those. Maybe they were used for ceremonies or rituals and removed for combat. Maybe they represent a theoretical blood trail. But why have them at all? They do not add adequate weight for cutting, and they get in the way much of the time. The same idea goes for the rings on the spine of a blade. However, those would not be removed.
Are you comliling some theoretical material together for a book or article? I would like to see that in print.
[B]
As for the oil/blood rag, well […].[/B]
Exactly.
Doug M
Well…it would be rather impossible for me to have contact with anyone PRE-BOXEr..unless you want to believe in VERY OLD people…
As for the blood rag…Don’t know…but a single use would do it…I sure wouldn’t use it more than one time…
As for the oil, I HAVE had oiled rags that were no big deal…depends on the oil you use and if you soak a rag or have a section that is lightly done… (byt the same token, my teacher had a rag with the sword…and the equivalent of 3 in 1 oil for after practice.
either way…anything along these lines is purely brainstorming…
Of course, there is always the possibility that they are purely for look and demo purposes. If so…so what. There are entire techniques in some routines I know that are symbolic…some that merely train balance…why not some that are put in there for the Art in Martial Art. I could see that at some point in time, someone might just want to add something that made them feel artful…who cares.
As for where they are tied…I know plenty of people that DO simply tie either tassel or flag on the bottom of the handle…In fact, my teacher from China thought it strange to do anything else with them…even when there was a place for a ring on the pommel.
Is there a reason NOT to have them in combat…Sure.
Are any of us going into combat with a sword?
Does training with flag or tassel have the possibility to reveal some imperfections in you basic techniques…Sure… So I use them fo that.
Originally posted by GLW
[B]Of course, there is always the possibility that they are purely for look and demo purposes. If so…so what. There are entire techniques in some routines I know that are symbolic…some that merely train balance…why not some that are put in there for the Art in Martial Art. I could see that at some point in time, someone might just want to add something that made them feel artful…who cares.
Are any of us going into combat with a sword?[/B]
Well, I care whether or not millions of people are being shown an inaccurate display of a weapon while it is portrayed as historically true. We care so that the histry that is shown is an accurate history (or as accurate as possible). It does not take a smart guy to see how far misconceptions can reach into a population’s consciousness: super bendy Chinese swords, belt swords, poorly made swords in comparison to other cultures’ swords, and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. So it does not matter if we are going into battle with swords. What matters is whether what we are practicing is true to our respective systems.
Playing with history is an entirely ethical issue of the highest degree.
Doug M
Now that is funny…given the almost total ORAL history tradition in most Chinese Styles and the complete BS that most people will argue about in regards to history.
The first part of historical depiction:
If the tassels were ornamental or purely for show and not used in battle (possibly true if tasseles and flags were used at all ) Then the depiction in a museum would be inaccurate only if they were shown in combat situations. If they were shown in display…no big thing.
If the sword being show was one that belonged to a noble…was it a ceremonial weapon (never seen use) or a real combat one…
Again, there is a lot of room for interpretation there.
Historical inaccuracies abound. I can quote chapter and verson the origins of styles…as in how many styles tie back to Yueh Fei. Orgins of styles, use, hero tales, etc… .
The issue of weapon weight…an issue in competition for ages. I know plenty of Traditional folks that use heavy but badly made weapons. I also know of plenty that claim traditional and then spend ages going though weapons to pick out the lightest one…not the best balanced or most comfortable as a traditional person would be thought to do..
Sword Tassels Practical Use
Speaking from a non-historical basis:
Some practical uses of sword-tassels are as a means of leading the sword and distracting the enemy. The sword, following the tassel in a strike can confuse the opponent.
Besides that, it can be a means of balance when using the sword and can help you depending on the style you are practicing. For the internal styles, when you do horizontal strikes, meaning the sword is parallel to the ground, generating the strikes from your mid-section can encourage the tassel to swing circularly below the sword itself.
Also, as far as swords go, some of the Practical Tai Chi Swords with various length options and also a polished walnut option can be found here, done by Hanwei.
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/Oriental_Swords_Page_2.html
Wow, this thread has blossomed. A lot of good ideas in here.
Love the comment about the sash being red until it’s been used. I’ve cut myself enough times to be able to paint an entire wall blood red, and two of the most serious were practicing with swords.
Anyway, I have, frankly, quit caring about how the arts are depicted when it comes to historical accuracy. At least mostly. I mean, some of the claims are absolutely laughable, and when I laugh at something, probably more people are laughing, too. I laugh when people talk about using the “sword fingers” for instance to poke someone in a sword fight. You’re swinging a sword and you’re going to poke your opponent? On the other hand when someone says you hide a dagger in that hand and stab, slash, poke and block with it, I pay attention. I pay attention, because it’s very similar to other schools of fencing and makes sense. But how can tassels circling below distract the opponent? Personally, I’d be paying more attention to the shwrp end of the sword.
I tried tying the sash around my wrist and found it to be a bit restraining agility-wise. But at least I can understand a reason for it. It would seem sound to me, except for the agility thing. Why put it on the sword when you could just tie the whole thing on your wrist?
By the way, I found that Nadi book about 2 years ago in a store and went back to get it but they’d sold it. Now I can’t find it (and I hate having to order something once I’ve held it in my hands in store). Is there some place specific that would have it?
Originally posted by Sam Wiley
Anyway, I have, frankly, quit caring about how the arts are depicted when it comes to historical accuracy. At least mostly. I mean, some of the claims are absolutely laughable, and when I laugh at something, probably more people are laughing, too.
If you practice with practicality in mind, I can see where you would not care how practice is related to historical accuracy or not. However, if you train in a particular style and your interest is in accurately portraying that style, you will definitely want to be as accurate to technique as possible. In this sense, the whole of Chinese martial weapon arts is within a select style (although it is comprised of many influences). As such, we who practice the Chinese arts with tradition in mind will likely consider ourselves temporary bearers of tradition who want to see the accurate continuation of such traditions.
I laugh when people talk about using the “sword fingers” for instance to poke someone in a sword fight. You’re swinging a sword and you’re going to poke your opponent?
Actually, you can do that. It is not merely a poke but, as I understand it, a penetrating strike. People who punch through apples, watermelons, or sandbags with their fingers alone do so for a reason. There is more to the sword hand than laughter.
But how can tassels circling below distract the opponent? Personally, I’d be paying more attention to the shwrp end of the sword.
Exactly. While a tassel can do the very thing you describe, to learn how to use the tassel and the blade well is another story. A danger can be that a practitioner can overuse the tassel when he wants to use the blade. At swordforum.com, this issue has been discussed quite a bit. There was mention of using metal in the tassel to add to the harrassment of the opponent. I would check out the threads over there for more information.
I tried tying the sash around my wrist and found it to be a bit restraining agility-wise. But at least I can understand a reason for it. It would seem sound to me, except for the agility thing. Why put it on the sword when you could just tie the whole thing on your wrist?
Right. I found the same when tying the sash on a dao around my wrist. I do not believe anyone would want to tie a sash around the wrist when using a dao.
Doug M
Doug
Are you comliling some theoretical material together for a book or article? I would like to see that in print.
Always… it’s what I do for a living.
Coincidentally, I recently received a sidebar about sword tassels that both confirmed and denied my personal stance on this. It confirmed tassel use as a lanyard, more specifically with mounted swrodsman tying the sword to their saddle (this is very parallel to sword knots in the West). It also described tassles as a weapon, noting that some tassels actually had hidden barbs inside them. I’d love to see an example of one of these. It was implied that these were really long tassels…
What is this sidebar you mention? Is it a source you can post here?
Thanks,
Doug M
The sidebar…
It’ll be in an upcoming issue. Soon, in fact. A good time to subscribe! 
Well, I am trying to not care too much. I take an interest, of course, but I’m not going to stress over it. Right now, some are trying to get back to the fighting roots of the arts. In the future, people will go back to the health and exercise benefits. Further down the road, people will go back to exploring the fighting aspects…it’s the fire and ice cycle. The pendulum swings because people of extreme opinion push and pull. Me, I just decided to have fun riding the swing. Makes me feel like a kid again.
My point about the fingers things is that you have a sword. That’s it, right there. Use the sword. If you have a knife in the off hand, use it. But why finger-poke if you can stab or cut? All stories of people being able to jab through armor aside, other things are more believable and their are methods requiring less skill…such as using a knife in the off hand. In any case, most of the armor back then was silk or other cloth, or wood. I don’t think Asia saw a lot of chain or other mail, or even plate. By the time they met westerners, the westerners came with guns, which practically eliminated the development of armor for a long time.
Anyway, while others are considering themselves temporary bearers of tradition and wondering why my stances aren’t lower, I’m wondering why, if my stances aren’t low enough, my tassels drag in the mud.
I guess we could debate this thing until we’re all blue in the face, but we’ll still never know for sure. After all, none of use has gone into battle to test a theory and everyone who has is dead.
Whoever decided to tie a scourge to a sword handle had to be one weird dude.
Originally posted by Sam Wiley
[B]In any case, most of the armor back then was silk or other cloth, or wood. I don’t think Asia saw a lot of chain or other mail, or even plate. By the time they met westerners, the westerners came with guns, which practically eliminated the development of armor for a long time.
I guess we could debate this thing until we’re all blue in the face, but we’ll still never know for sure. After all, none of use has gone into battle to test a theory and everyone who has is dead.[/B]
China does have a history with armor. Check out threads at www.swordforum.com for some good information on armor. In fact, check out art of specific time periods to get a good idea about what kind of armor was worn as well.
Well, we can be pretty certain. We just need to get through all the nonsense. That will take time (hopefully not as long as it will take the Chinese government to open the first emperor’s tomb/pyramid.
Doug M
Doug,
Yeah, I wish they hurry it up and open the first emperor’s tomb or for that matter any of the many emperor’s tombs. I sure many of our questions about type and shape of weapons and maybe some written materials on exactly what fighting styles really existed in their times. So many questions but so little answers.