No Laughing Cow, I took you straightup and everything you asked was simply an honest inquiry. I guess I am just saying I’ve reached a deadend in my search and can appreciate where you are at.
My solution was simply to accept what is and go on.
All the forms are more similiar than dissimiliar.
Good exchange and please keep me posted on what you may stumble upon.
Count.
Here is the Xiao Jia Yi Lu form as it is being taught to me.
NOTE:
The numbering and movement names are per the CPS Video(81 Movements), we got additional material that has shows it in 76 Movements.
Cheers.
RAF.
Thanks, for the exchange.
I will keep you posted if I find anything new. Yeah, I am still trying to collect as much info as possible.
Keep well.
I told ya RAF could do a better job explaining it than me. Everytime guys like RAF and Count open their mouths I learn something.
Thanks
TTT
I recommend interested parties check old threads re: Baji for some good discussions on the art itself and it’s similarities to both Chen style Taijiquan and Xingyiquan. A lot has been said there which is still very relevant and there’s no need to repeat much of that.
Don’t mean to imply this isn’t a good thread though.
can you list the names of those threads?
I brought this to the top because someone asked me about the xin jia form and its possible development.
No one seems to have answered to the original question about what the difference among the words, Tai Chi, Taiji, Taijiquan so here is the answer.
The difference between taichi and taiji is the spelling. taichi is the America version spelling the chinese pronounciation. In mainland china, the proper spelling is taiji.
Tai meand great or grand, ji/chi means polarities or extreme. Grand polarities represent the fundamental concept of daoism which is graphically represented by ying and yang symbol. Chuan means fist and it represent that it is a style of martial arts. Taichichuan is a martial arts system based on the differentiation of substaitial and insubstantial and obtain majority of inspiration from daoism classic such as “tao te ching”. hence the name.
In the West, far more people come in contact with taichchuan than daoism so taichi have became the byword for the taichichuan though for Chinese ears, it is very funny. It’s like calling gospel singing as Chiristianity. Given the recent degeneration of taichichuan into mere dance, more genuine practioners deliberately put chuan to emphasise the martial aspect of the art. Furthermore, they often adopt taiji rather than taichi to further differentiate themselves from people who do taiji only for health. So if someone use the words taijichuan instead of taichi, the chance is that he is practicing this art as a martial arts.
BTW q=ch 
Originally posted by Walter Joyce
can you list the names of those threads?
I brought this to the top because someone asked me about the xin jia form and its possible development.
Sorry for taking my time to answer, but here’s a list of some threads I found on the search:
1. thread, 2. thread, 3. thread, 4. thread, 5. thread
I also recommend interested folks visit Emptyflower forum and dig up some more Baji discussions there (though I think most of you guys are already there).
Here is a little more to add in comparing Baji and Chen’s taijiquan. Its a reply to Huanyuan 13 regarding Hong Junsheng’s “small circle” Chen Taijiquan. Huanyuan 13 sparked up something about my Chen’s form and that led to more thought on the comparision of baji and Chen’s taijiquan. When Wong Meng Bi referred to his Chen’s as xiao jia, I noted that it doesn’t resemble what I have seen of Chen Peishen but he may have been referring to what he learned from Chen Fake as small circle rather than the xiao jia system. However, I have also heard that Chen Fake practiced a xiao jia frame also. So I am at roadblock for now.
However, these are my personal observations and you can read into them what you wish (they may not reflect all of what my teacher knows or says regarding the two systems).
Huanyuan13:
Yes, you have read me like a book. I came to Tony Yang for Chen taijiquan and Yang taijiquan, not out of reputation but because of their ad in the Yellow Pages.
When I got to Akron in 1985 I couldn’t find anyone teaching and so I checked the ads in the phone book and saw that one of his students had put his school (which I found out the school never got to open in downtown Canton and he was only teaching privately) advertised Yang and Chen taijiquan. I called but couldn’t understand the directions (was only in town for less than 2 weeks and he lived 20 miles south in a different town). Finally, by a lot of twists and turns, I made it to his house in 1988 and then refused to practice the Chen and Yang Abstracts he taught. I thought the Chen abstract looked too much like longfist and so I returned to Jou Tsung Hwa’s Tai Chi Farm for more instruction in Chen’s taijiquan. After viewing many, many films and talking to Mr. James Guo, Toronto and kungfu brother of my teacher, I came to understand Chen’s taiji much better and returned to the abstractions.
In the Wu Tan(g) school, I know of no one who teaches all 3 of the abstractions in Chen’s taijiquan. From what I have seen, almost everyone learns Du Yu Ze’s linking form and the lao jia and then pao chui. I actually don’t know that linking form although I have a copy of my teacher playing it in the 1970s at the Wu Tan Center in Taipei. Its diffusion in the Wu Tang system strongly propagated by Adam Hsu although my teacher learned directly from Du Yu Ze. They learned in his livingroom. Adam had left for the US when my teacher spent time learning the Chen abstractions from Liu.
I’ve been lucky to learn all 3 abstractions and lao jia. Currently I am waiting on pao chui. The 3rd abstraction leads to pao chui.
You hit on something. Wong Meng Bi, in referring to his form as xiao jia may have been referring to it as small circle form. You rang the bell because my teacher kept saying, FOR YEARS, he likes these forms because the circles are smaller although they 85% follow the frame of Du Yu Ze and Wong Meng Bi. Also he felt the small circle movement to be more akin to the baji system.
Many people don’t have the skill nor realize the that baji is full of small circle movements: You will find this in the da baji form (although translated as big frame, it contains small circle movements).
For example, if you take two movements found in the da baji form (which are also played as single moving postures) Shen or Chen (Taiwanese accent really screws up my low leve pinyin) Shou (played forward and backward) it resembles, in movement, repulse the monkey or winding hand) or Hen da 3rd movement in da baji. These all have small circle movements but if the practitioner is unskilled, they usually butcher the movment by playing from the wrist rather than waist and arm.
Even the opening block of the moving one punch is a full body but very small circle–its so subtle but yet so important and is directly trainable from turning over the da qiang (big spear exercise). Someone who plays this well will show the full body chan si jing but its so small and subtle you need a trained eye to see. But the way we store energy in the waist movements is similiar in some movement but in other movement quite different (accordian like in the waist movement Xu-jing to fa-jing). Because of the small circle movement this had led a number of practitioners to conclude that Liu put baji into the Chen’s taiji abstracts. At this point, I don’t think that is the case and when people look for the similiarity of baji at the lao jia or yi lu level, they don’t see large circle movements and then conclude, “aha, its got baji in it”. Believe me, I could really understand that coming from someone who is a Chen style purist and imagines the possible arrogance of Liu taking a system like Chen and modifying to include baji. Its really just some of the overlap in very basic training but I could see how someone in the Chen family lineage would be upset. Maybe we can say that baji looks more less like a punctuated performance of lao jia and more in flavor to pao chui.
I won’t repeat the Liu stories again but so many people forget that he started martial arts training at 4 or so and continued his study through his entire life. They often fail to realize he trained and saw more martial arts than most simply because of his advantage in life: Wealthy family, highly educated and under Li Jing Lin/Zhang Xiang Wu/Li Shu Wen warlord quasi-Hebei Governor gang of sorts.
Liu also, in Tianjin, had a very close relationship with a Zhao Bao master and he never revealed much about what was exchanged and what he saw (same with his meeting with Chen Fake in 192. Also these stories were told in the 1970s, when Chen’s taijiquan was barely visible in the West and weren’t done in order to enhance Liu’s authority and/or image. The man knew what he knew and liked what he liked. His primary evaluation was based on efficiency and fighting potential.
Sometimes people train in baji for a bit and think they have it down because it looks so simple on the surface. But the reality is that Baji is a very sophisiticated art in theory and its complexities are very subtle (this aimed at no one in particular and I considered Omarthefish’s comments and insights on the mark)
Thanks again and I may just have to order the tape by Chen Zhonghua. I like what Hong Junsheng wrote and I read these papers when the site first listed them.
Thanks again!
RAF you’ve opened a can of worms…
just thought I’d say that for fun. But seriously now, I get the impression from being around some good old fashion Chinese people that the better you can hide the deeper qualities of your art and still display the funtamentals means a limited number of people will get it- among them the more perceptive student who will learn the deeper qualities-ideas-concepts- -!!
Each internal system of the old school implies - learn one system well and it will expand out into a personal practice that builds on what you come to appreciate and add to your own ideas. All this applies you’ve practiced something with a solid classical foundation like Shaolin and then entered in appreciation of certain ideas like Taiji - then went on to appreciate the other internal arts you heard about that share common concepts. Fa-jing, whip like action, circle and square, small and large, opened - closed are very interesting concepts. Tis an exciten thing this. 
Wow, propably the best thread I have read in some time!
Thanx everyone, I really enjoyed reading this!
RAF, you know your stuff!
If there is anyone who can maybe give me the movement names of Chen Xiauwang’s 38 posture San Shi ba form? It’s a rather new form and not practiced everywhere…
I would really appreciate it!
Thanx to everyone sharing good knowledge!
Thanks but there are some people that post here that really, really, know their Shyt, especially with regard to Chen and Yang’s taiji. I’m still leanring.
If I recall, the Chen Book put out under Feng Zhiqiang and Chen Xiaowang has the 38 movement form in the back. I also think that Chen Xiaowang demonstrated most if not all of it in his first visit to the Taste of China. Its on video.
Good luck.
Thanx RAF
Will definitely check it out, didn’t know about it!!
I have:Chen Style: The Source of Taijiquan
by Davidine Siaw-Voon Sim, David Gaffney
A great book check it out,If you haven’t…
thanx for the advise,
Enjoy!
RAF,
It’s funny you should bring up the idea of Liu Yunqiao bringing a little Baji! into Chen Taiji. As I think you know, my teacher doesn’t do Chen, he plays Yang and Wu. But the point i was thinking of is that he talks about just the reverse. He talks about incorporateing a little taiji into his Baji!!! not the other way around. I mean where’s your base anyways? Are you a Baji guy who also knows taiji or the other way around. A small but, to me, signifigant difference.
Omar
I came through the taiji door in 1983 and discovered baji late in life (1993-4). Saw how it significantly improved my foundation and consider it my base along with the little bagua training I know.
In my experience, much of the basic baji training overlaps with what I know about Chen’s training although I understand that a baji purist or a Chen purist would strongly disagree. At this stage, I really don’t care to argue the merits or the pitfalls of my approach.
In 1997, my teacher basically went public with his baji and that is pretty much our trademark now (although there are classes that train in 8 Step Praying Mantis as a base and then learn some forms in 7 Star, Mei Hua, Mi Men etc.).
There is no one in our Center or any of my teacher’s students who have significant training in our system of bagua. He has, however, opened up some of the jiben gong training to a few remaining formal students and none is teaching. So I can’t really say that if you come into our school you can really major in bagua. There are only two or three students I know who even train seriously in the bagua basics. I defer to the expertise of Count and others who have trained longer in the Wu Tan(g)'s system of bagua.
Current and Future direction: Stay in the basics, that’s where the gold lies.
We’ve talked a bit about this before but I never tire of Baji! background. It’s interesting how all the Baji guys seem to have a Bagua and taiji but not Xingyi. My Baji! teacher has not, to my knowledge, really taught bagua to anyone. He has a couple of students who play bagua but not much and I don’t know if they learned it from him. He has given me guidance in my bagua practice but not instruction per se.
With bagua, I’m about as much in the basics as you can get. 8 mother palms all the way. I know a couple other drills and a couple palm changes but that’s about it. I’m still dying to know what system his (yours? ours?) system of bagua is. It seems pretty clear that the bagua I got in America was Gao style but in China…he just won’t say, only “There is no bagua but Dong Haichuan’s bagua!” You know how that works.
Omar
Learning baji and hsing i almost seems a lesson in redundancy–if not in technique, at least in fighting strategy.
It’s also interesting to note that for both, there are evasive styles to complement the training (baji+piqua and hsing i + bagua).
Originally posted by Muppet
[B]Learning baji and hsing i almost seems a lesson in redundancy–if not in technique, at least in fighting strategy.
It’s also interesting to note that for both, there are evasive styles to complement the training (baji+piqua and hsing i + bagua). [/B]
(baji+piqua and hsing i + bagua) = Chen Taiji?? LOL. J/K.