Strike First in Taijiquan?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

In Taijiquan, you never(or almost never) strike first. You wait for the opponent to come to you(strike you), then you take what they give you(deflect), and send it right back(strike them). Of course this is a simplification of taiji, but you know what I mean.
My question is, in a real life/street situation, even though it is against most basic taiji principles to initiate the attack/fight, would it be a good idea to strike first if you knew there would probably be a fight.
Example: Three people close in on you with knives or just barehanded, and try to back you up.
It is late and no one is around. They obviously aren’t just after your wallet. If you know they will hurt you, would you take them out before they actually went ahead and attacked you?
I probably would if it was that clear they meant business. But, especially in Taijiquan, you want the opponent to come to you, so you can asses there skill, weaknesses, and give them what they give you.
What are some of you guys’ ideas on this. Would you initiate the attack if you thought they would actually attack you?

“Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi.”

2

You are making the concept too complicated for yourself. More important then thinking about who is going to strike first, the taiji emphasizes that you must relax. Relax and strike when you need to. In the situation you presented, no matter what we tell you here, you will respond as you must in order to survive. If you are relaxed, you will have a higher chance of doing so.

  • Nexus
3

If three guys surround and corner you, then they have initiated the fight, which is a bit different in my eyes than initiating an attack, but they have started it.

In any case, the Internal Arts have many training methods that teach us to fight against more than one opponent, and the moves and techniques in the forms assume that we have been surrounded by at least two people. It’s a very bad situation when you get surrounded by people with knives. Things get a bit more complicated.

You might want to train for something like this by actually having yourself surrounded by three partners empty handed, taking out the one who moves first and running straight past him for safety, and then step it up to training with markers or rubber knives. Markers might be better so you can see if and where one of the others might get you or how your technique failed. Just try to get away with as few wounds as possible and in the least vital places if possible. Then maybe make it random, and lastly having two attack at once so you can train knife defense against two people. I suggest running to be the end of the drill every time.

The Filipino martial arts have excellent knife defense drills that you may want to look at and possible find the parallel or same techniques in your Taiji.

4

this is too easy

just have an offensive mindset not defensive!

why cant you strike 1st? who said you cannot strike 1st?

look they may attack 1st but you strike 1st… :mad:

classic’s huh!

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5

Thanks for the suggestions, Sam. The markers are a great idea. I never really thought about using anything other than fake knives, or something like that. Someone in class asked my teacher about multiple opponents, and he said you can’t really fight more than one person at once. You can only fight one person at a time. He got three of us to attack him(barehanded), and basically there was a lot of fast footwork(and running), and throwing us into each other so only one of us was fighting him at once.

Tiger–

 Having an offensive mindset would be necessary when fighting in a life or death situation, but when the fight hasn't started yet, couldn't having that offensive mindset possibly make you start a fight that might not occured if you had waited or done something else? I might think this wouldn't happen, but it crossed my mind.
 Could you please explain more "they may attack 1st but you strike 1st"? Do you mean if they are punching and you see it coming, you strike them before their strike gets to you?

–T.S.

“Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi.”

[This message was edited by Taijiquan Student on 10-14-01 at 07:24 PM.]

6

taijistudent

yes strike them 1st as they strike you, even though they started 1st. most people freeze because there taught the wrong mindset(defence) self defence is really the wrong word to use, because it subconsciously it registers as a block and move thought. so i never say defence and i never say block! no such thing as a block, it will get you hurt and again sets the wrong mindset. try smashing instead of blocking, see what your mindset is like?

you can also use plastic coke bottles cut in half and make them look like broken bottles, so some edges with scratch you, pens are good but again mindset isnt close to the real thing, either is a plastic bottle, but it does scratch you up abit. just my thoughts… :wink:

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

7

thanks.

“Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi.”

8

Markers etc.

I never thought of using plastic bottles - doh!

With the rubber knives, you can line the bladed edge in lipstick each time. Always ask permission before borrowing lipstick…

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
– Hong Kong Phooey

9

Hhmmm

If your Taiji skills are good then DON@T strike first. In your response your response may end up landing on them first but don’t initiate firts. If this is the case then your Tung Jin is slightly obscured by the fact that you’ve done all the initiating and you haven’y been totally aware of what your assailants intentions are (I know this sounds a little stupid if they have knives out at the ready). I do go along with the idea that they have initiated it with knives out, but it’s also a matter of waiting for the first intent to manifest too. I would be very weary in initiating anything that a) I didn’t have control over and b) anything I couldn’t finish off (almost the same thing).

10

Generally you can’t really strike first with a repressive movement signature to Taijiquan, but I mean, just because your instructor tells you that you can’t doesn’t mean that you’re all o a sudden physically barred from doing so.

Use your head.

“Damned be the day that befalls us in a most hostile manner that shall compromise our Country, and damned be the great lengths at which are required of to stir our Patriotism.” - Anonymous

11

if you want a lot of info on this

then ask at e-budo.com - the Karate guys have been pondering this for centuries, there’re a few famous Karateka that have written about it as well. Definitely where I got my approach from.

I take the approach that if I feel threatened (and I believe you know this instinctively - I certainly do) then I am already reacting. Initiation in my mind does not entail thumping someone - it means starting the situation.

If you wait for someone to make an aggressive movement towards you then you may lose. They created the situation, therefore they have already placed you under attack. Your job as an MA is to ascertain what sort of threat they are and what response is appropriate.

If three guys have got knives then you have to get away - if that requires severely injuring one or all of them then so be it. Just make sure you’re not there when the cops arrive.

“If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?”

12

here’s some material

http://www.geoffthompson.com/Guest_Writers_Iain_Abernethy_page3.htm

“If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?”

13

kaitain damn straight

thats what i was also trying to say, offensive mindset allows you to be in control even before the fight, not just during the fight.

also guys you can use a entry technique to set up your 1st strike. never sit back ready..never!!

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

14

Run. A teacher of mine called it strategic retreat.

15

I struck first against he Taijiquan instructor. I just threw a few jabs and then backed off and he followed me right into a left hook and then he collapsed.

I am the Grand Ultimate Fist

16

F. Tiger

What do you mean by “never sit back ready!”? In Taiji if your listening skill is good enough then you certainly can sit back ready as you put it. Why? becasue you are already on the situation, by knwoing your assailant via his/her intent in their first moves so if your fighting skills are equally as good as your Tung Jin you should be able to respond appropriately. All this is done by not revealing your own intent towards the opponent. In this way you also have a massive element of surprise too. By entering into the bargain with a first strike you make your intentions perfectly clear to your assailant and (if they are sensitive enough) can read it, neutralise it, and shove it back down your throat potentially.

This does not mean that one MUST always respond to an action with a re-action 100% of the time, but so far in life it has worked for me.

17

Kara-Te type people for Intention is good,You lose if you attack first.~

It seems that T’ai Chi Ch’uan relies upon outside force and strength and neutrality.

let them attack but you hit first is literally classic. In writtings about important things to understanding T’ai Chi Ch’uan there are around thirteen concepts behind the stuff in any of the (at least Yang-style) forms.

Heaven level second degree, " If my opponent moves slightly I can hear and understand him."-“Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen treatises on Tai Chi Ch’uan”; Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing, translated by Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn;North Atlantic Books, Berkeley, California; p.79, 2nd paragraph, 9th line.

If you lose with T’ai Chi Ch’uan, you likely violated the rules therefore were not doing T’ai Chi Chuan…yes you could be not skilled enough to be successful, but more likely, you violated therefore were not doing~.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

18

Strike First

I am new to Taijiquan myself too. But even in Taijiquan, there seems to be varying view points. Not necessarily in regards to striking first, rather when to strike. If the intent to strike exists, that is, the attacker has initiated their attack (from the smallest movement on up), then the defending person should begin their forward striking defense, using adhere and follow principles. All Martial Artists need to shed the stereotype, “let’s make it fair” fighting principle of “block then strike”, whereas we are trained that we must get a full block in (thus waiting entirely too long) in order to begin our response. This should not happen.

If you block/parry then strike, the attacker is more than likely expecting this, so in fact, they are still in control. Throw their timing off by initiated your defensive strikes before they even get their first one fully started. Yes, they (the attacker)should start by having the movement or thought of movement(which might be physically reflective in a slight change in balance, a shift of the shoulder, a quick glance of the eye, or something even more suttle.) so that you undo their automatic switch which is telling them to attack, defend, attack, or whatever order it might be.

A situation is dynamic, so too must be the fighter. Do not think, relax, and move in accordance with how your opponent moves. Do not think of technique, rather clear the mind, and become a reflexive animal ready to spring forward in defense of its life, using your whole body, moving from the center, breathing from the lower abdomen, and allowing the energy to flow through you. Though I am saying is not exactly Taiji, it does happen to merge with what I do.

As a practicing Karateka Instructor, I can tell you that if you try to wait for the strike to come into your circle of defense, then you have waited too long, and you will set yourself up to get hurt as I have. Karate, just like Taiji is about self-preservation, and as such should not be taken so lightly that it is taken for granted that if a person blocks the initial strike they have been sanctioned to get out of a sticky situation and will survive. Do not give and take or take and give, only give.

Chris

Shogerijutsu - Where the External Learns to Be Internal