good post anerlich, I would have to agree with you. If there were no benefical points to chyropractic medicine, then it probably would not exist really. I would say contact a physician if the problem gets worse.
Originally posted by anerlich
At an extreme, no amount of meditation will ever rectify the structure to make a paraplegic walk again
One doesn’t really know for sure, but now we’re getting into a different issue.
good post anerlich, I would have to agree with you. If there were no benefical points to chyropractic medicine, then it probably would not exist really. I would say contact a physician if the problem gets worse.
Well, exactly. BTW, chiropractors are not the only ones to adjust the spine, physiotherapists do this as well.
One doesn’t really know for sure, but now we’re getting into a different issue.
It’s a bad analogy, I concede. My point is that some (perhaps most) injuries and structural problems cannot be significantly affected by keeping good posture or mental/spiritual exercises. Other than minor ailments, I would venture that most would respond, or respond better, to hands on treatment and rehabilitative exercises, than any course of meditation.
I don’t have a problem with meditation or postural work per se (though most of the latter IMO requires movement, not stillness).
I DO have a real problem with anyone who says it will work in all cases and that people with certain classes of spinal or muscular problem are wasting their time seeking active therapy. My quality of life would DEFINITELY be much poorer if I’d gone down such a path.
Originally posted by anerlich
I DO have a real problem with anyone who says it will work in all cases and that people with certain classes of spinal or muscular problem are wasting their time seeking active therapy.
I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that.
Actually, I think YOU need to think harder about structure and its impact on function.
Like i said, its a relationship. Structure follows function and function follows structure. Correct the functional - and the structure will follow. Of course, one has to take into account the detail of the particular case - but most musculoskeletal problems are caused by incorrect use, and those that aren’t can nearly always be significantly helped by finding better ways of use around the problem.
Sorry, but software upgrades do not generally rectify hardware problems.
Yes - but you can code workarounds, lol. The thing is, human hardware is not computer hardware - i remember running fractal generators back on 6502s - and it never increased the clock speed. However, i know that if i go to the gym and pump some iron, or run 10 miles every day - it will alter my hardware. Of course, those are extreme examples, and what we’re talking about here are much more subtle changes.
At an extreme, no amount of meditation will ever rectify the structure to make a paraplegic walk again - though, at this stage nothing else will either.
No, but i can think of examples of how people with cerebral palsy, stroke victims, etc have been helped to do things they’d never imagined with the help of neuromuscular explorations with a significant ‘meditative’ element.
If there were no benefical points to chyropractic medicine, then it probably would not exist really.
LOL - i’d like to think so too, but really, take a look at the world around you.
It’s a bad analogy, I concede. My point is that some (perhaps most) injuries and structural problems cannot be significantly affected by keeping good posture or mental/spiritual exercises. Other than minor ailments, I would venture that most would respond, or respond better, to hands on treatment and rehabilitative exercises, than any course of meditation.
Well - here’s the problem, you need to bridge the gap in your thinking between meditation and exercise.
I don’t have a problem with meditation or postural work per se (though most of the latter IMO requires movement, not stillness).
‘Postural work’ - a limited way of looking at it, but anyway - movement and stillness are both important components - although in terms of movement i would steer clear of anything resembling conditioning. There is movement even in standing meditation.
I DO have a real problem with anyone who says it will work in all cases and that people with certain classes of spinal or muscular problem are wasting their time seeking active therapy. My quality of life would DEFINITELY be much poorer if I’d gone down such a path.
Like Keng says, no one’s suggesting its some sort of panacaea, but you are profoundly underestimating the value of certain types of ‘meditative’ activity.
Of course, one has to take into account the detail of the particular case - but most musculoskeletal problems are caused by incorrect use, and those that aren’t can nearly always be significantly helped by finding better ways of use around the problem.
Wow. Can you spell “sweeping generalisations”? Are you a therapist? Have you ever suffered from a severe back ailment?
Mine was caused either by an accident or a congenital defect, the doctor was unable to tell for sure. The chiropractor thought it was a result of the accident.
“POP” goes that bubble.
here’s the problem, you need to bridge the gap in your thinking between meditation and exercise.
If I didn’t think there was a link, I wouldn’t do yoga. HERE’s the problem, your idea of where the intersections of the two lie (based on … ?) do not match mine, based on actual experience with a significant back problem. I agree there are are links between the two (he11, there are links between everything) but in my experience not to the degree you postulate.
I’m not advocating conditioning, either. I am advocating rehabilitation.
The thing is, human hardware is not computer hardware
You brought up the software/hardware analogy, and I agree you chose it poorly.
.
No, but i can think of examples of how people with cerebral palsy, stroke victims, etc have been helped to do things they’d never imagined with the help of neuromuscular explorations with a significant ‘meditative’ element.
Perhaps you could point to references rather than just “thinking of” them?
there is movement even in standing meditation.
If you say so, but we started by discussing seated meditation.
Of course, those are extreme examples, and what we’re talking about here are much more subtle changes.
What YOU are talking about are much more subtle changes, which IMO are all you will ever get from your dubious recommendations regarding self-healing.
There was nothing subtle about the therapeutic changes I had to go through to get my back fixed.
If you REALLY think I could have got from there to here by meditation alone, I pray that you never are in a position where you are responsible for the welfare of other people who can’t make their own health care decisions.
I still don’t buy your rather patronising statements on meditation, or structure and function in the human body, especially on what I do and don’t know about them, and whether or not meditation will assist in healing particular ailments (of which if you have objective scientific proof, feel free to share). I practice meditation and have at least a passing familiarity with most common versions of its practice.
I’ve had a fairly severe back injury, and managed to get it healed through a long and difficult process. You haven’t, but still think you’re the expert. It’s easy to give all sorts of offhand advice with no consideration to the outcome if it has not affected and will not affect you personally.
Wow. Can you spell “sweeping generalisations”? Are you a therapist? Have you ever suffered from a severe back ailment?
Most - yes, that is purely anecdotal - but from a Sifu and a sihing who are both qualified therapists.
Mine was caused either by an accident or a congenital defect, the doctor was unable to tell for sure. The chiropractor thought it was a result of the accident.
Thats why i said one has to consider the detail of the particular case. I would agree that an accidental injury or congenital defect might require a more direct intervention - but not in all cases, and certainly not in all cases of muscular imbalance. Like i said function influences structure, and mindfulness-based approaches to physical therapy, which seated meditation could be considered, improve function.
If I didn’t think there was a link, I wouldn’t do yoga. HERE’s the problem, your idea of where the intersections of the two lie (based on … ?) do not match mine, based on actual experience with a significant back problem. I agree there are are links between the two (he11, there are links between everything) but in my experience not to the degree you postulate.
Exactly - you still need to bridge more gaps. Those bridges are built on kung fu - experience and neurological theory. I had a student with sciatica - after a course of mindfulness-based exercises - no problems at all.
Perhaps you could point to references rather than just “thinking of” them?
Well, i know that for you anecdotal evidence won’t suffice - and i dont really care to spend the time searching, but here’s one supporting a mindfulness-based approach to physical therapy :
For a discussion of cerebral palsy, read Chava Shelhav-Silberbush’s 1988 Masters Thesis at the University of Boston School of Education. Her teacher taught my sifu.
If you say so, but we started by discussing seated meditation.
And you think there’s no movement in sitting meditation?
What YOU are talking about are much more subtle changes
There was nothing subtle about the therapeutic changes I had to go through to get my back fixed.
These are two completely different contexts - In the first context, the process is subtle, in the second the process was not subtle. In both cases, the resultant physical change might be considered subtle compared to the physical changes resulting from a course of weight lifting or long distance running, as i said.
If you REALLY think I could have got from there to here by meditation alone
It seems youre not following the thread very well here - where did i suggest that? You dont have to buy anything i say , i’m just suggesting alternatives.
Everything depends
Just another inconclusive anecdote, FWIW.
I too have spondylolisthesis (probably congenital). My problems are compounded by SI joint dysfunction, pelvic alignment problems, and generalized ligament laxity (among other things <sigh>). The combination of “issues” led to a near debilitating onset of sciatica not long enough ago. Physical therapy and a modicum of chiropractic work, combined with pain treatment definitely helped in “quieting down” the symptoms, and bringing the combined problems under improved control.
I’ve noted longer term, continuing, and even more significant improvements through my own posture work. In my case, some of the most dramatic benefits have come through sitting posture work. This is a great thing considering that my job has me sitting on my behind at my desk or in meetings a great deal of the time. I’m talking very simple but intentional postural adjustments here. Though more “subtle” than the more medically oriented treatments, the posture practice has increasingly become an informed “habit”, has offered sustained relief, and is apparently helping to address at least some of the contributing factors. Added benefits are that I can consciously or subconsciously “practice” and refine anytime and everywhere.
I’m amazed at what an impact such small improvements in posture have made, some in a surprisingly short amount of time. [E.g., avoiding crossing of the legs, sitting squarely and evenly, mindfulness when standing and walking, frequent application of pelvic tilt during routine activities, changes in sleeping posture, etc. The kinds of things our Moms, Doctors, and Yoga instructors perennially harped on us about.] Much of this is integral and informative to my Wing Chun practice as well, so I’ve enjoyed a double benefit. Conversely, it’s equally amazing how many and surprisingly severe problems that our seemingly insignificant self-abuses can induce over time. More so as we age, eventually discovering that we are neither impervious nor immortal.
Just another case study and perspective. Everyone’s mileage will vary.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Wow, my back problem is small potatoes compared to what some of you have got. It’s great to see that they have not stopped you from your passion of the martial arts. Inspirational.
I’ve always had a good back. I had minor scoliosis back in school from carrying my bag over the same shoulder, which was quickly self remedied by switching shoulders.
I think my problem is as yuanfen pointed out, tension in the back muscles. More mindful of that now.