# Some observations on TCMA **URL:** \ **Category:** Kung Fu Forum\ **Created:** [January 13, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549 "2013-01-13T17:16:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![EarthDragon](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/earthdragon/32/489_2.png) [@EarthDragon](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/EarthDragon)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/21 "2013-01-14T03:50:21Z")
> You can’t call your technique good if you don’t have any of the following: - good timing, - recognize opportunity, - cut in through the right angle, - strong power, and - good balance. When I was learning Goju, we had techniques that had all the above characteristics, however when I began learning mantis, I realized that many of the Goju techniques like that of funakoshis shotokahn, they were not complex or intricate enough to overcome many of the counters locks and traps of the praying mantis. so higher level systems will make lover level systems, techniques look bad ---
**Author:** ![bawang](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/bawang/32/3554_2.png) [@bawang](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/bawang)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/22 "2013-01-14T03:53:45Z")
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1205788]When I was learning Goju, we had techniques that had all the above characteristics, however when I began learning mantis, I realized that many of the Goju techniques like that of funakoshis shotokahn, they were not complex or intricate enough to overcome many of the counters locks and traps of the praying mantis. so higher level systems will make lover level systems, techniques look bad[/QUOTE] goju is just as “complex” as mantis. youre still training mantis with the mindset of a japan fetishist. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJY2pgR9r44](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJY2pgR9r44) ---
**Author:** ![N11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@N11](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/N11)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 4:05am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/23 "2013-01-14T04:05:26Z")
[QUOTE=bawang;1205783]good technique wont work if you are weak or cowardly. fake kung fu claims a weak cowardly man can defeat a brave strong man with the proper technique, mainly bruce lee era.[/QUOTE] That’s why there are so many “sparring” videos that look like flinchy slap fights. ---
**Author:** ![bawang](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/bawang/32/3554_2.png) [@bawang](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/bawang)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/24 "2013-01-14T04:14:38Z")
[QUOTE=-N-;1205793]That’s why there are so many “sparring” videos that look like flinchy slap fights.[/QUOTE] because they are fake kung fu. ---
**Author:** ![SteveLau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@SteveLau](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/SteveLau)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 6:51am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/25 "2013-01-14T06:51:45Z")
Jdhowland, What you said are very much true. That is why I love the modern CMA schools. They emphasize on developing fighting skill, without neglecting the health promotion aspect and good ethics. Regards, KC Hong Kong ---
**Author:** ![Kellen\_Bassette](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/kellen_bassette/32/1046_2.png) [@Kellen\_Bassette](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Kellen_Bassette)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/26 "2013-01-14T12:31:28Z")
[QUOTE=jdhowland;1205748] Can a system that has lacked real fighting experience for a couple of generations be returned to its combative roots?[/QUOTE] Absolutely. If two people began training the apps for real and testing them on each other, they will learn how to fight with their system. Shifu can’t give that to you even if he has it. You have to take it; and you can take it whether he gives it to you or not. It’s right there if you want it. ---
**Author:** ![Kellen\_Bassette](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/kellen_bassette/32/1046_2.png) [@Kellen\_Bassette](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Kellen_Bassette)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 12:32pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/27 "2013-01-14T12:32:52Z")
[QUOTE=-N-;1205765]Lineage without skill is an embarrassment. Better to have no lineage than to claim one and not be able uphold the standard of skill. That is the traditional view. [/QUOTE] This bears repeating. ---
**Author:** ![Kellen\_Bassette](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/kellen_bassette/32/1046_2.png) [@Kellen\_Bassette](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Kellen_Bassette)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/28 "2013-01-14T12:39:52Z")
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1205788]When I was learning Goju, we had techniques that had all the above characteristics, however when I began learning mantis, I realized that many of the Goju techniques like that of funakoshis shotokahn, they were not complex or intricate enough to overcome many of the counters locks and traps of the praying mantis. so higher level systems will make lover level systems, techniques look bad[/QUOTE] No. A better fighter will make a lesser fighters techniques look bad. No matter how many complex techniques someone knows, they will look bad if they can’t stop a jab from landing. ---
**Author:** ![jdhowland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jdhowland](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/jdhowland)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/29 "2013-01-14T15:08:05Z")
> bawang;1205780]tcma societies follow an ancient philosophy called legalism. Yes. This is the source of what I meant by “practical values.” It provides the contract. Confucian values provide some of the social structure. Legalism is also shown in the prevalence of posted rules of conduct in many schools. > in history sometimes the culture focused on fighting, sometimes it emphasized on aesthetics and performance. tradition is what you make of it. tcma is more than fighting or performing. Ah, now you’re getting to the heart of it. This is hinting at just the thing I was hoping to bring up. ---
**Author:** ![jdhowland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jdhowland](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/jdhowland)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/30 "2013-01-14T15:14:56Z")
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1205781]This sentence make no sense. There are only techniques that work and techniques that don’t work. There are no such thing as good techniques or bad techniques.[/QUOTE] OK. I should have stated that better. What I meant was that a fighter with unorthodox technique can still win over someone who better represents the expected appearance of good form. A technically good fighter can still lose to someone who is bigger and stronger. Correct application of energy gives you an edge–but not always the advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Robinhood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Robinhood](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Robinhood)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/31 "2013-01-14T16:40:57Z")
[QUOTE=jdhowland;1205858]OK. I should have stated that better. What I meant was that a fighter with unorthodox technique can still win over someone who better represents the expected appearance of good form. A technically good fighter can still lose to someone who is bigger and stronger. Correct application of energy gives you an edge–but not always the advantage.[/QUOTE] Yes, and I would like to add, learning is an individual journey, you will improve yourself and hopefully make yourself more efficient than you were, whether that will give you an advantage over someone else ?, depends on their abilities and level of skill, size , etc. So in the end, if you learned something worth while , you should be better than you were , if your not, maybe you didn’t learn anything. ---
**Author:** ![YouKnowWho](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/youknowwho/32/583_2.png) [@YouKnowWho](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/YouKnowWho)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/32 "2013-01-14T18:24:51Z")
[QUOTE=jdhowland;1205748]Can a system that has lacked real fighting experience for a couple of generations be returned to its combative roots?[/QUOTE] One of my guys spent the whole last week in a local MMA gym. The coach is preparing for his next UFC. The coach used my guy to test his grappling skill. TCMA experience can be benefited to all MA system. ---
**Author:** ![SKM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@SKM](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/SKM)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/33 "2013-01-14T20:09:51Z")
personal experiences with the spectrum Hello. I just joined the forum and this is my first post. My personal experience with this topic is that I have experienced both ends of the spectrum in martial arts training. My Tai Chi master was literally a master of the Five Excellences- calligraphy, poetry, painting, philosophy, and Tai Chi Chuan. I met my Tai Chi master when he was 82 years old. He could not fight his way out of a paper bag. The way I met him was when he came into my office one day, did a full shovel, and said, “It hurts right here (pointing to the inside of his knee) when I do this.” I was impressed. The second visit to my office, he said he had heard I know Tai Chi and would like to see some. Right there in my waiting room, I performed first section Yang style for him. After my performance, I received the usual amenities “Ah yes, form very correct, you have trained hard. You must come and practice with me.” I was at his house the next day, then the next day. He said, "Ok, ok. You come to my house every Tuesday and Thursday and I teach you Tai Chi. About two weeks into training, I was thinking that I have never seen Tai Chi like this before and then it dawned on me. He was teaching me Chang Chuan Yang Tai Chi Chuan! I had heard about it for years and never thought I would see it performed let alone learn it. Several years later, after his first stroke, my master said, “Ah! I can no longer remember Tai Chi. You are sifu now.” (I almost cry when I think about that moment.) After I moved from the area, I later heard he had a second stroke and died. He was a small man, old and frail, but to me he was a giant. He was a martial intellectual giant in his own way. Bertrand Russell said, “A civilized Chinese man is the most civilized man in the world.” I had the honor of training with such a man. My Gung Fu master was highly intellectual as well as powerful. He was a fighting and acupuncture master. His school consisted of a run down building on Geary Avenue in San Francisco which always smelled of dust, sweat, and iron palm medicine. He only taught four Gum Gong, or fighting forms, based upon the fists and footwork of his school, and two weapons- knife and staff. The rest of training was composed of fists and footwork in high repetitions and fighting; always fighting. The students were like chess players trying to figure out how to hit each other without getting hit. At that time, I did not do much sparring. I went away to college and when I came back to the school, it was fighting, always fighting. I was bruised on my entire body all the time. Gum Gong training at that time was brutal, bordering on dangerous. When I opened my own school after about 22 years of training, I followed the training patterns of my master (albeit using safety measures to prevent severe injury) and found that the system he had developed was transmitted to my students with similar results. One of the mottos of my school was, “Fight the way you train.” My fighting master is also passed away. In summary, I feel incredibly fortunate to have experienced the full spectrum of martial and healing arts within the Chinese martial culture and have observed no disconnect between the aesthetic and martial content of the arts. Please excuse me if this post has seemed arduously long. Please consider it an introduction of sorts and I look forward to talking with all of you in the future. SKM ---
**Author:** ![jdhowland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jdhowland](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/jdhowland)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/34 "2013-01-14T22:42:46Z")
> I…have observed no disconnect between the aesthetic and martial content of the arts. Another piece falls into place: So far we have (at least) cultural identity, history, social groups, rules of order, teaching systems, medicine, martial content and aesthetics. > Please excuse me if this post has seemed arduously long. Please consider it an introduction of sorts and I look forward to talking with all of you in the future. SKM You think that’s long? Look at some of the forums around here. Welcome to the discussion. If you are still in the Bay Area you might know some of the names thrown around here. GP? Osteopath? Other? just curious. ---
**Author:** ![jdhowland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jdhowland](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/jdhowland)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/35 "2013-01-14T23:21:04Z")
OK, SKM. I just saw your public profile. There is no such place as the midwest. I’ve been there and it doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![SKM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@SKM](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/SKM)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/36 "2013-01-14T23:45:58Z")
No such place. [QUOTE=jdhowland;1205947]OK, SKM. I just saw your public profile. There is no such place as the midwest. I’ve been there and it doesn’t exist.[/QUOTE] LOL. Corrected that in my profile. Thanks for the tip. Also, yes I recognize some of the names that appear on this forum. All of that was a long time ago. Lots of water under the bridge since then. ---
**Author:** ![jdhowland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jdhowland](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/jdhowland)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/37 "2013-01-15T00:57:59Z")
[QUOTE=SKM;1205950]LOL. Corrected that in my profile. Thanks for the tip. Also, yes I recognize some of the names that appear on this forum. All of that was a long time ago. Lots of water under the bridge since then.[/QUOTE] Not really a tip. Don’t give any personal info you don’t really want to share. It’s just that (for very good reason) some will not engage you based on a vague introductory story. Stick around. There are some good folks here. On the whole, we’re a contentious lot, but pretty good natured about it. Being far away from my kf roots in SF Chinatown I love to swap stories with anyone who was there in the “old days.” Be well. ---
**Author:** ![EarthDragon](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/earthdragon/32/489_2.png) [@EarthDragon](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/EarthDragon)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/38 "2013-01-15T04:23:01Z")
jd > Being far away from my kf roots in SF Chinatown I love to swap stories with anyone who was there in the “old days.” when were you there? I lived in the sunset 1405 noriega spent many a day in chinatown. from 1995-1996 ---
**Author:** ![jdhowland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jdhowland](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/jdhowland)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/39 "2013-01-15T04:33:53Z")
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1205995]jd when were you there? I lived in the sunset 1405 noriega spent many a day in chinatown. from 1995-1996[/QUOTE] '74 to’79 and intermittently thereafter. Things have changed but you probably had similar experiences. ---
**Author:** ![N11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@N11](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/N11)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 6:27am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549/40 "2013-01-15T06:27:54Z")
[QUOTE=SKM;1205906]My Gung Fu master was highly intellectual as well as powerful. He was a fighting and acupuncture master. His school consisted of a run down building on Geary Avenue in San Francisco which always smelled of dust, sweat, and iron palm medicine. He only taught four Gum Gong, or fighting forms, based upon the fists and footwork of his school, and two weapons- knife and staff. The rest of training was composed of fists and footwork in high repetitions and fighting; always fighting. The students were like chess players trying to figure out how to hit each other without getting hit. At that time, I did not do much sparring. I went away to college and when I came back to the school, it was fighting, always fighting. I was bruised on my entire body all the time. Gum Gong training at that time was brutal, bordering on dangerous.[/QUOTE] George Long White Crane? [Previous page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/some-observations-on-tcma/54549.md?page=3)