Siu Leem Tau vs Siu Leem

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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I watched a video recently of Taam Woon Biu talking about Wing Chun and Yip Man. He posed an interesting point…

In Chinese it is often said the first half of a form is called “tau” meaning head-end, and the second half of a form is called “mei” meaning tail-end. He said Yip Man didnt finish learning the form called Siu Leem, only the first half, and thus named it Siu Leem Tau.

It sounded interesting and logical when I first listened to it. But after thinking a bit I know there are many pre-Yip Man lineages who themselves say Siu Leem Tau and teach it up to the same point as Yip Man did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo

Any comments or opinions on this?

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Nonsense!

The set was originally called “Siu Lien Tao/Xiao Lian Tao” (Small Training Set) in other lineages like Yik Kam, Yuen Kay Shan systems.

Yip Man changed it to be called “Siu Nim Tao/Xiao Nian Tou” (Little Contemplation/Recitation/Intention/Idea Foundation/Head).

Chan’s WCK is there own version these days…clearly added on some Southern Siu Lam or local boxing along the way. Is it WCK body structure and signatures or Siu Lam’s?

This is how you know the DNA of your system.

Tam Woon Biu’s story is what he believes. WCK founded by Chi Sim (Jee Shim)? More stories!

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I thought that may be the case but wanted to hear it from Wing Chun people who do their research.

He showed the 2nd half in that clip which didnt look like something special to me, not even like Wing Chun and seemingly not with the theme of the form.

Ji Sin isnt the founder you say? Who is the decided founder of Wing Chun?

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Ji Sin isnt the founder you say? Who is the decided founder of Wing Chun?

There ain’t one that all lineages agree on.

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I’ve learned quite a number of forms from other KF styles whose names end with Tau/Tao/…

Unless 80% of the KF forms in existence come in multiple pieces, I don’t buy the premise regarding SLT.

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I would say that if we take the odd founders (Unique only to their branch of WCK) and mythical founders (i.e. Jee Shim, Ng Mui) out, we’re left with Wong Wah Bao.

Wong Wah Bao, following old sense of Chinese humility and propriety, would say it was someone else who was the founder…

As for the “legendary, missing second half” of Siu Nim Tao, you can see that was just tacked on. It is not consistent with what we know as Siu Nim Tao - the theme, the quietness, the development of structural power. Old timers spent a lifetime to the development of power from the structure…and to lose it so loosely with those random movements?

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Anyone notice there is a Noi Huen and Ngoi Huen in the Siu Nim set - and at 10:16, there is a movement inbetween Gaun Sao (aka Gwut Sao) and Jum Sao? Also, the little hop after the Tout Sao section would be like where the set would end…then they open up the set again with their add on section.

This is supposedly Chan Wah Shun’s WCK, which Yip Man learned…

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For technical speaking,

Ok,

Talks about completeness.

This particular Siu Leem is evidentaly incomplete per the standard of the ancient time.

Why? am I so certain?

simple, because it doesnt have a elbow, shoulder range section which implementing the WCK principle, which needs to cover the close body range and related body structure, a must of WCK 1850 or before. Compare with the old Yik Kam’s long 4 section SLT, which has the close body range address in section 3. This is an advance section of the SLT because it deals with Close body range applications/structure…etc.

Instead this set fill the end of the set with the arm range nam kuen or White Crane alike stuffs.

Thus, the so called last section doesnt really teach anything which doesnt have in the CK and BJ form. Not to mention if handle in properly the Nam Kuen or White Crane alike stuffs can mislead the heck out of the practitioner.

To investigate TCMA set one must look into what content does it covered instead of name or last name…etc.

Also, there is a problem with the so called Shao Lin Wing Chun; that term Shao Lin is problematic because to be real honest and serious, some very important Key signature of WCK is Emei 12 zhuang related.

Yes, even Ip Man WCK has this signature, on the other hand, Some of the South east asia WCK has lost this signature, thus, even thought they also use both arm, do tan sau… do tan da…etc but always seems “something” is missed or doesnt feel that same but cant quite know what is it. and disregard how they do it, it looks Southern Shao Lin. That is because if the Emei part is missing sure the whole thing will looks Shao Lin as expected.

if one lose this key signature it sure become Shao Lin as all the Nam Kuen or Southern Shao Lin, but then that is not WCK as it is , it is evolved WCK which is ok but certainly it is evolved.

Certainly Shao Lin is a big name for different reason, and to place Shao LIn infront of one’s style is great. However, what does that Shao LIn means?

It is Shao Lin because one’s ancestors join the So called Shao Lin uprising? It is Shao Lin because the art is a Shao Lin art or evolution which could be identify within Shao Lin? for example, some claim Tan Sau Ng is from Shao Lin and Thus WCK is Shao Lin…etc. with this then please identify which Shao Lin school is Tan Sau Ng’s art belongs to? if it is from Shao Lin, then the art should be able to be traced back to that particular school of Shao Lin, and art will look sure has look alike with the ancestor art.

Well, I open up another can of worm on the close body section and the emei signature which is even within Ip Man’s WCK.

and the reason why Eternal Spring Weng Chun, some SEA WCK doesnt "look, Feel " WCK or Praise Sping. because they dont have the Emei signature. Nothing good or bad, and these style could have also train great fighter but it is different art. IMHO.

Just my two cents.

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[QUOTE=anerlich;1028056]I’ve learned quite a number of forms from other KF styles whose names end with Tau/Tao/…

Unless 80% of the KF forms in existence come in multiple pieces, I don’t buy the premise regarding SLT.[/QUOTE]

Most scholars say that Cantonese has 7 tones. Tao can mean Do, or the Way/Path. Tauh, means head. The “cat stance” in the luhk dim bun kwan is called 'diu mah" (hanging horse).
If you use the wrong tone it can mean F— your Mother.
There’s story about an English friend of Bruce Lee’s who at the dinner table asked some one to pass the hai,(crab) in Cantonese. His tone was off so he really asked to pass the pus-y. :wink:

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lol @ phil. nice story :wink:

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I’ve always found the clips from Sergio quite interesting to be honest. I also understand that almost every single practitioner of Weng Wing Chun (sic!) since it’s beginnings have their own stories and propoganda :rolleyes: It’s great for a little light research, but everything that’s ‘said’ should be treated as such.

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1028097]Most scholars say that Cantonese has 7 tones. Tao can mean Do, or the Way/Path. Tauh, means head. The “cat stance” in the luhk dim bun kwan is called 'diu mah" (hanging horse).
If you use the wrong tone it can mean F— your Mother.
There’s story about an English friend of Bruce Lee’s who at the dinner table asked some one to pass the hai,(crab) in Cantonese. His tone was off so he really asked to pass the pus-y. ;)[/QUOTE]

Cantonese has 9 tones. Tao is mandarin for way or path, Do is the Cantonese reading. The reason Cantonese is never written as its pronounced is that when the British claimed Hong Kong they didnt like and never could develop an ear for a foreign language like Cantonese. They romanized it how they pleased, and made it impossible for Chinese to understand foreigners trying to speak Chinese words to this day. If you have ever been to Hong Kong you will know this, all the street signs and stations are spelled in English that when read dont even resemble the Chinese.

Cantonese is tough though, and your right about the word “hai”. Actually the way Japanese people say “hai” is the tone of the Cantonese word for p_ssy. “domo” for thank you means “rub me more” in Cantonese. The writing for thank you “arigatou” means “I got a problem” in Cantonese. Funny, the chinese make fun of the japanese alot for these linguistical oddities :slight_smile:

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In case it helps;

Xiao nian tou. Chinese words are often a combination of two characters. ‘NianTou’ combines to make the word ‘idea’. The xiao means small/lesser and may not be related to the name, rather a classification.

There is a standard naming culture in chinese forms. That is to refer to them as ‘xiao’ and ‘da’ which means big and small, greater and lesser. Usually Xiao means lesser and refers to the more fundamental more important form. It contains the bread and butter techniques, the everyday techniques. Da means greater and refers to the extra techniques. Those which are powerful but used less frequently and therefore less important.

This naming culture pervades all styles in china. The interesting thing is is that if a form is named ‘xiao’ then you would expect there to be a twin form named ‘Da’. So the real question should be was there an extra form called ‘Da Niantou’ quan? (Dai lum tao)

The alternative is that ‘niantou’ quan (idea fist) was at some point a seperate style and the xiao is added to the name to emphasize that this is a single form that captures the essence of niantou fist.

Anyway it is unlikely the form was ever xiaonian and then the tou was added later because niantou is one word. It is more likely it was ‘niantou quan’ and the xiao was added later. Looking at the structure of the form I do not believe there is a second half.

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Yes, Siu Leem Tau. Actually there is a Daai Leem Tau that Ive learned myself in the past. William Cheung teaches it but changed the name to “advanced siu leem tau” which seems to have caught on, and I have heard of it elsewhere too.

Heres Cheung’s Daai Leem Tau:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUdEcwgb2_Y

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“Tao” is Wades Giles romanization for the Mandarin pronounciation of “the Way”. Actually the Pinyin is closer and more accurate as “Dao”.

“Siu Nim Tao” would be better spelled as “Siu Nim Tou” - to signify the difference in character.

What makes me laugh after all these years is some people in WCK call the first form as the “Way of Siu Lam (Temple)” or worse, “Way of Small Thought”. :slight_smile:

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Siu Nim Tou is Chinglish, no one would understand that pronunciation. Cantonese seldom pronounce N, saying it as an L colloquially. Tou means stomach or otherwise, but not head. It is pronounced exactly as Siu Leem Tau in Cantonese, ignoring British Romanization.

Your right about the mandarin being pronounced as Dao, not Tao. Fully is Xiao (shiao) Niao Tou, phonetically.