Actually many experienced players also practice in the reverse direction. In push hand and application drills, the moves are definitely practiced on both sides.
I suppose one side is emphasized in the form to make it easier to learn.
push hands and application drills etc are not the form
equally ‘refined’ skill doesn’t develop in the form - it’s developed in pushing hands and da lu. Therefore there’s no need to be concerned with training the mirror image of a movement that is mechanically covered amply in the form already.
sorry if terse - just getting to end of 16 hour day and still in the office
Greetings..
At the school where i train it is expected that the student learn the 108 movement Yang long form in both directions prior to moving to other forms and weapons. The concept is to familiarize the student with the path they may someday have to walk.. in other words, if the application requires that i use a left-side version of “single-whip” it will be helpful if i have done it 1000 times previously. Redundancy is better than insufficiency. The willingness of the student to balance both sides of the Tai
Chi experience is a signal to the instructor of that students direction.
Just another perspective from the Far-side.. Be well..
Grasp Sparrow’s tail is done on both sides in Yang 24. single whip follows cloudhands going to the left. Forms might present on one side to get you thre techniques. You have to do the training and practicing. So learn the forms, then be industrious.
If there was a form with Cloudhands moving rightward Singlewhip would be done on the ther side. If one technique is in one direction, certain ones that follow Have to be going a specific way to make sense for it to be there.
Like 1-2 combo right left. The reason for the second technique being left, is that the first technique primes the opponent for the second technique from that direction or in that way.
Learn the form as given. Then be industrious.
jon
That’s the conclusion I had come to. Good to have it validated.
Cody
maybe…ok, listen; grasp bird’s tail-both sides, repulse monkey-both sides, part horses mane-ditto, brush knee, kick with heel, fair lady at the shuttle,ditto,ditto, ditto. Single whip…repeats on one side NUMEROUS times througout the form-especially the 108-you’d think, at least ONE TIME it would be performed on the other side, yes? And as far as simply extracting the techniques and doing them lefty…many Hung-Ga, wing chun,southern mantis,etc sets are symetrical. A form as lengthy and repetitive as the 108 could just as easily not have repeated the sequences so many times and simply do them on each side. Any reseonably experienced martial artist would realize you can repeat movements from a form…so back to the original question. The reason I am being so dang persistant, is that I have heard mention that single whip in particular is performed in such a way that to do it on the other side is actually counterproductive. I’m not saying I’m buying into it or not. BUT…Tai Chi Ch’uan is a high level internal art. from the brief experience I’ve had in Hsing-Yi Ch’uan, and Bagua, all the forms were done on both sides. Now I have never studied liu ho pa fa, so I can’t say, but isn’t it a bit odd that Tai Chi Ch’uan is not taught symetrical?-especially since many noted masters practiced all three-i,e, Sun Lu Tang.
‘clear as an unmuddied lake, sir." However, I am trying to delve a little deeper into this question than simply technique. perhaps someone with more experience can shed some light on this subject: What I am searching for is exactly what is happening within the body. Which meridians are affected by this specific posture? Or is it simply that out of every movement in the form, Chan Seng feng, the entire Chen lineage, the entire Yang, Wu,Hao, Sun lineages simply overlooked this one move that constntly repeated itself on one side only? or am I the only person in HISTORY that has ever questioned this? I have posed this question regarding the fact that in Hung-Ga, the leopard section is also not symetrical, performed ‘righty’ only going both ways, wheras the other animals are symetrical. My responses were shallow, to say the least. Mostly versions of “that’s how it has always been done” or “you can always practice both sides”’ The trouble is, when creating a set whose sole design is to pass on your system’s movements, techniques, concepts,theories, training, faht-ging,hei-gung from one generation to another completely intact, I think that even a rank beginner would figure out basic understanding.
Perhaps whoever came-up with or got it to where it is systemized today didn’t want to expose the heart to a stabbing from behind as Single-whip–a strike to an opponent you are virtually turnin,g your back on after hitting and facing someone rushing /attacking you from the left.
Perhaps it is so that you don’t expose your heart to stabbing from behind while attacking high.
I’ve heard some people say that it takes 10 years b4 you understand TCC, I’m far from that time and far from understanding tcc. From my limited understanding though it seems there are many ways to fight with tcc. One could probably fight only using single whip. The principle taught in single whip for application could be used in 10,000 or more ways, it could be used against a kick or on the right side or whatever the situation arises. If you understand single whip on the left side by the principals you should have no problem doing on the right but to focus on doing it on the right to even it out seems to be missing the point if your not understanding what its teaching.
perhaps the single whip is only used on one side so that you can see the eye of the fish your making:confused:
Greetings..
Tai Chi, and its various components, is uniquely individual in its interpretation. So many schools, so many claims, so many results.. is it solely a combat art, a meditation, a philosophy, a health tool.. is one style better, another lacking, one technique superior, another ineffective?.. As has been alluded to earlier, the results are manifested in the quality of the student.. what works for one may not work for another.. What if Yang Chengfu had applied himself to Aikido, or Chen, or Pa Kua.. our Tai Chi environment might well be completely different. I can say with certainty that each time i have met a sincere and dedicated practicioner, they have represented their art well, regardless of the art.
Right-side, left-side.. what works for the individual is what works.. again, excess will serve you better than insufficiency, which is why i, personally, find value in training both sides.. That there are differing opinions as to the validity of such training is inconsequential considering the benefit “i” derive from “my” experience.. That others derive their benefits from differing training methods causes me no harm, and, at best, offers me valuable perspectives from which to gauge my own experience.. Rather than supporting the ego with fervent defenses of one’s own personal preferences, a sharing with the purpose of expanding awareness of possibilities might better benefit all involved in the Arts..
WTF!?!
Is something missing from this thread now?
(bob )
One might say when you are practicing single whip you are practicing both sides at the same time. The “one arm” principle is what makes single whip. One might say that it completes the circuit of chi and is not necessary on both sides. But the forms are nothing. In fact, and I thought the point was made already, originally there were no forms. Why wouldn’t you practice single whip on both sides? As far as I know there are many more postures that are dominant applications in all styles that are only done on one side in your yang form. I’m guessing your asking about Yang style from your description as 108 and your other posture names. How about white crane spreads it’s wings or bend the bow and sweep with the lotus leg or fist under elbow or play guitar or come up and form the seven stars or needle at sea bottom or shoulder stroke or, wait a minute, maybe some are done on both sides and you didn’t notice? Yet you count 108 so you must be counting correctly.
Enough, forget about the forms. You SHOULD be drilling postures on both sides. You can not learn tai chi chuan from forms only. Yes, someone who is left handed may attack you.:rolleyes:
Count
Greetings..
I suppose i missed the intent of your last post.. to be clear, forms are simply “links” to the greater pursuit of Tai Chi.. forms are confining, restrictive.. once the forms are internalized, once you understand the “cause and effect”, Tai Chi is simply what you “do”.. Yang, Chen, QiGong (the disciplines i practice) serve as foundations for the Greater Tai Chi experience (life)… Forms are, indeed, useful.. but, they are not “IT”..
Why practice on both sides, Count?.. because i choose to.. it works for me..
Is something missing from this thread now? hmm, common courtesy, respect, etc.. the usual..
Tai Chi Bob
I suppose you are right. My post was addressing the missing/deleted post which made things clear and the reply at the top of this page. In fact my question is why WOULDN’T you practice them on both sides? Forms are useful for giving some idea of connecting energy and training a system. But they are a small part of a system as a whole. Sorry if you felt my post was discourteous, but respect must be given before taken. I was not being dis-respectful of you!
Oh, sorry
I inadvertantly called RAF by his name BOB. I wasn’t refering to you Tai Chi Bob.
I’ll take a stab at this one…
Firstly, the long form was only one of several forms from the Yang style. The movements are done on the other side in other forms within the system. Single Whip, for instance, is practiced on the other side in the Small and Large San Shou forms. In the original Yang long form, Grasping Sparrow’s Tail was practiced a slightly different way each time, so you are not necessarily repeating the exact same movements.
Also, there is another art from which some, including myself believe Taijiquan originated. Grasping Sparrow’s Tail is performed on the opposite side in one of the system’s forms, and into the corner to boot. In fact, a great many of the postures from Yang style Taiji are performed in these older forms, sometimes with a devious little twist when it comes to application.
Besides that, you can always practice the form on the other side. Many people encourage it. And no art would consist of only one form and some push hands. Not any martial art, anyway.
For those who want to know, Single Whip acts on the Stomach meridian, and can be used as a qigong to heal the stomach if the disease state is too yin. You can also use Single Whip as a qigong to heal the joints by going from Press Forward, to Sit Back Ready, and into Single Whip, holding for a minute or so and repeating on the other side. Single whip is one of the movements in the form that give us grounding, or earth power, as well. That’s one of the reasons you scrape the outside edge of your foot around to 45 degrees.
Hi Count,
you wrote:
“Enough, forget about the forms. You SHOULD be drilling postures on both sides. You can not learn tai chi chuan from forms only. Yes, someone who is left handed may attack you.”
I haven’t kept up with the whole thread, but the question is (must) be a very old one. We can’t believe that this generation is the first to note this. So, it’s possible that the single-sideness of most tcc forms is intentional. It’s also clear that the majority of people are also single-hand dominant, and that the body is not symetrical (only bilateral): i.e., the heart is usually on one side of the body; same for the liver, not the same for the kidneys, lungs, eyes, etc: and that one side of the body usually develops differently we’re either a righty or lefty. OK, there are naturally ambidextrous people, and its possible to train and become pretty fluent with both hands. But, imho, becoming truly ambidextrous by training is even rarer than having natural ambidexterity. What usually happens is that we can become very good doing a specific thing with bot hands. For example, a person can be considered ambidextrous if he writes with the left and throws with the right; or, otoh, lots of people can throw with both hands, but they neither throw, write, punch, etc. the same on both sides. Anyway, I agree, it is traditional to practice the individual tcc movements repetitively on the left side (although I wouldn’t insist that the traditional form is right-handed). Practicing the entire form on both sides goes back at least to Fu
Zhengsong. Whoever said that, in terms of body movement (not arm movement), the form is symetrical whether done on either side is entirely correct. However, in general, there are few who would disagree that the average boxer is at least as competent as the average internal or external martial artist. Yet, there’s a jab, a cross, a hook, etc., etc., and very very few boxers are ambidextrous or can be trained to stay that way after they’ve been hit. So, I’d never say that one has to train everything on both sides. OTOH, I believe that one should do it in order to train the mind. Years ago, when someone asked about the “left” form, it was suggested that they simply teach it to themselves --if they wanted to learn. To do that, though, you really have to analyze the “right” form. It’s an opportunity to find out whether you really know the form you do. It was also used as a way to help train others. For example, senior students would do the left hand form as a type of mirror for the beginners. Finally, doing the opposite side helped prepare the student for “Side B” (in the two-man form). I agree with Count about doing it, but I disagree that it’s because the form is incomplete or can’t be used to deal with any attacker. Single whip can be used in any direction just by moving one’s feet. imho
Respects,
Esteban
I agree with esteban. You really have to think about the form
if you want to try to do it on the other side. One side “teaches” the other side. And you cannot “teach” your brain/body how to do it on the other side if you cannot do it right on one side. For example, I can throw a frisbee OK with my left (non-dominant) hand by copying what my right side does. When I start to throw it funky with the left, I do it with the right a few times to “show” my left side how to do it correctly. This movement is much like single whip, by the way…
With all the time wasted discussing on this board, you could have learned to do Single Whip on the left and right side, left and right at the same time, front and back, upside down, underwater, on skates etc. etc.
At one time i also wondered about this single whip question, although i think my situation was a little different because i do sun lineage, and sun doesn’t use the hooking hand posture that the other families have. The sun lineage single whip still focuses on lie jing, but it has more of a ripping cotton feel that is more reminiscent of hsing yi. (ala san ti and pi chuan).
When i asked my sifu about this, he said, “in tai chi there is no left or right side. There is only unity and balance.” When he said this i was totally confused because at the time i felt it was totally favoring one side and not the other. Later on i realized that single whip is a very balanced posture when you analyze the jing it uses. So once i got passed the physical issues (such as hand posture and stances), the answer became quite evident.
Tentigers- The Pao Ying found in the LSW ng ying and sup ying is definitely right side dominant. From what i have been taught, its right side dominant because its a very yang set of moves, thusly focusing on real hard strikes. So the emphasis was on the right side because more people are right handed, and this is a killer set of attacks to use when fighting. In the overall scheme of things, it really boils down to fighting and protection of the heart. The leopard is a very hardcore animal, so it leaps into the face of danger, so sometimes that puts it into a bad situation, thus the need for ferocious strikes and a need for protecting the heart.
As for the tang fung ng ying, if i’m not mistaken, they do their pao ying on both sides. Different strokes for different folks i guess.
Peace 