Originally posted by apoweyn while we’re dissecting the sidekick, what’s people’s take on this:to stick, or not to stick. that is the question.do you retract the kick immediately? or stick it for a sec? why?stuart b.
Never leave a kick hanging, even if it worked. However, we do two typesof side kick- snaping and thrusting.
The snap returns quicker, like a jab. Not as much power, but a lot faster in and out. The base foot does not turn and you don’t get as much hip into it. Targets are usually lower, especially knees.
A thrusting side kick getsa lot of hip into it, the base foot pivots. The kick goes straight in an returns along the same path, like you deployed it in and out through a straight, narrow tube. The hips drive the kick, and the mor hip rotation the better your technique and power. And it makes a big difference to both. To see the difference in power, you only need a heavy bag. Kick it hard as you can both ways and see how it swings.
To illustrate one important aspect of technique, I’ll give you a ‘war story’. I was working out and sparing with a TKD & Escrima brown belt. He was getting ready to test for black, and wanted to spar with different styles to improve his ‘game’. He was an excellent fighter, and as you’d expect, a good kicker. But every time he threw a side kick to my mid section I trapped it. I finally told him how I was doing it- actually he was doing it to himself. I moved the target and did an inside downward block. He was dropping the kick just a little on the withdrawal. To watch, you’d hardly notice. But I could feel that kick drop right into the basket, and the response was so automatic that he and I realized he was traped at about the same time. We worked on our basics, pulling those kicks straight back out. It is difficult to trap a side kick, even if intentionally left hanging for training purposes, because the straight pull back slips right out and the counter rotation of the hips as you withdraw adds force in that direction also.
agreed 100%. it’s a very bad habbit and a difficult one to fix. at least it was for myself … i still catch myself doing it from time to time.
a little disagreement on the latter half of the post though. with the thrusting side i have found that, with practice, you can get nearly as much power without rotating on your grounded foot. there is definatley a little more power when i do rotate, but i don’t find it to be a huge difference. maybe i just havent practiced the pivoting way enough because of personal peferences.
“… and see how it swings”
hehe
i was always happier when the bag wouldn’t swing but would rather dent and give me that thunking sound. i thought this was a result of better penetrating power.
People and styles are different, so your point of disagreement is well noted. God point about the dent- I suppose it depends on the bag, where and how you kick it. How deep it dents? How hard it ‘jumps’? Whatever gauge you use, just kick it. Theory without application is a mind game for keyboard commandos.
Speaking of which, I’d better go do something else pretty quick. Diversions are ok, but this one is habbit forming.
I do it this way: knee bent(not much), pivoting, leaving the kick for a second
I know that everyone will disagree but I feel that leaving the kick for a second give the time for the energy to travel to the leg and hit the target, I know this sounds stupid of course.
And I think if you turn the foot stability is better because when your foot is pointing in the opposite side if the target it has more room(the hole length of the foot) to absorb the energy that rebounds to you when you hit the target, and you have the knee to absorb too.
But if you dont move the foot:
1-you will loose stability because of what I said just befor.
2-you will loose a bit of power because its harder to move the hips in that position.
But an advantage to not moving the foot is that its faster to do and to retract, so your less vulnerable if the technique fails.
not everyone disagrees with you. (though i’m not sure about the rationale.) many instructors tell you to ‘stick’ the sidekick. personally, i disagree. i think that results in dissipating the force into a push. whereas withdrawing results in a punching force. but that’s a bit metaphysical and based solely on personal experience. and experience is very subjective, so… pass the salt.
1-you will loose stability because of what I said just befor.
… i dont find this to be the case. what you said above absolutely makes sense, but i havent had any problems being pushed off balance even when the bag’s swining back at me. this is probably due to the fact that my supporting leg is bent at about a 45 degree angle though. my teacher is all about being low and not raising during a kick.
A major reason to turn your foot to do a side kick doesn’t have anything to do with tactics, it has to do with the fact that if your weight isn’t aligned properly, you will damage your knees a little more each time you do the kick.
why does it damage the knees? i haven’t noticed any problems nor seen more knee injuries than avarage at my kwoon. i can kinda see what your saying but is the stress on the joint really going to be enough to damage it if you are deeply rooted.
i ask cause ill start kicking the other way if it definately hurts your knees. i have to start from scratch in january anyway so there’s no better time to start new habbits.
Because the force returned from your kick connecting moves through your body into the floor. If you don’t have your heel pointed at the target, this means that you are channeling the force of one of your most high power techniques sideways across your knee joint. If it’s more extreme of a lack of twist, you’re also twisting the joint with the force from the alignment issues themselves. Force across the knee is a bad thing, it’s like eating a joint breaking technique every time you do it.
you mean sideways across your base knee joint? huh. i’d never thought of that before. (i do turn my foot, so i guess i’ve never had much cause to). interesting.
i don’t think that would be as much an issue if you’re retracting it immediately, but i don’t know. that’s actually a really good point.
Originally posted by apoweyn justicezero,
you mean sideways across your base knee joint? huh. i’d never thought of that before. (i do turn my foot, so i guess i’ve never had much cause to). interesting.
i don’t think that would be as much an issue if you’re retracting itmediately, but i don’t know. that’s actually a really good point.
Excellent point by Justicezero, and a good reason we turn the base foot on that thrusting side kick. It has extension, which can stress joints if improperly done.
With the snaping side kick though, it isn’t just the immediate retraction but the fact it does not extend like the thrust. It also isn’t used for higher targets, and doesn’t have the power of a thrust. It’s main purpose is to dammage or control his base while minimizing the time you compromise yours. And, like a jab, it is a good way to set him up for something else. Keeps him worried about protecting more than one height zone. It can be deployed to the front or side without turning the base foot, which makes it both quick and versatile. Ex: dealing with multiple opponents. A snaping side kick to the side to stop forward momentum of one opponent while dealing with an opponent to your front. Since it returns quickly you are still mobile and havn’t spent a lot of time on one leg (microseconds are a lot of time in a fight).
When you don’t pivot or use less of a pivot, it is necessary to have your body weight moving forward to counteract the reactive force. It is possible to do a thrusting kick even with little or no pivot.
I still think if you dont move your foot its not a real sidekick.
In my book a sidekick is a kick that is done with a complete hip rotation, your hip must be in the same direction than the kick, so turning the kick is part of the technique and has to be done at least a little bit to have your supporting leg, your hips and your kicking leg aligned together and give you good power and stability.
well, you’re getting into semantics then. a kick isn’t a sidekick because it doesn’t meet your definition of a sidekick. and that’s fine. there’s no real disputing that. to my mind, it is a sidekick. and frankly, i wouldn’t know what else to call it. i could make up another name, i suppose. but there seems little sense in that.
in any event, it’s just a word. the differing mechanics are worth discussing. the application of the name is a bit of a fool’s errand. (of course, i’m very often the fool doing that errand. )
fa-jing, doesn’t it destroy ballance to move your weight forward while on one leg, or am I missing something in how you do it? We, and other styles I’m familiar with, want the option to retract the kick and step away. It seems that if you move your ballance forward your only option is to drop right in front of him.
Babooon, as I said earlier, styles are different. We differentiate between a thrusting and a snapping side kick, while in your style apparently only the thrusting one would be a sidekick. That is just semantics- my labels are not necessarily better than yours. The principles are important, though, as doing it improperly can result in knee injury or a busted face, or both. Just curious, does your style have an equivalent to our snaping side kick?
Originally posted by babooon87 In my book a sidekick is a kick that is done with a complete hip rotation, your hip must be in the same direction than the kick, so turning the kick is part of the technique and has to be done at least a little bit to have your supporting leg, your hips and your kicking leg aligned together and give you good power and stability.
In my book, a sidekick is a kick that goes to the side. As opposed to a kick that goes to the front, or a kick that travels a circular path.
Anything more detailed than that is just dividing up different types of sidekicks.
“to stick, or not to stick. that is the question.
do you retract the kick immediately? or stick it for a sec? why?”
Supporting leg slightly bent, no pivot low blade of foot, pivot when kicking to the waist and above using the heel. Retraction depends on how it lands. If it’s clean and does damage retract, if it lands but needs a follow up then stick and push off of that bent supporting leg to keep the opponent off balance or do damage. Usually I’ll just continue moving forward by bringing the foot directly down from the target which brings me in close for grappling and hand work or even hitting my opponent with a shoulder.
Just to be clear, the momentum is generated before the leg is lifted- step up, then kick with front leg in one motion, or push off with the rear leg before kicking with the same rear leg, OR kick from a side stance where neither leg is in front of the other. Yes, your balance is committed to moving forward if the kick catches air. Since Wing Chun likes move forward, it fits into our battle plan (follow up with punches.) However, if things are really bad, you can still bail out to the side, because although the weight is committed, it isn’t that extreme. Also I would like you to know that Wing Chun is very selective about kicking, although I am not, personally. Real WC kicking is said to happen on three base legs - your 1 and his 2. Open the gates with your hands then stick the kick in from close range. In this case, pivoting forward would actually jam your kick.
Familiar with TKD? Think about the step-behind side kick - also commited to forward momentum.
)