Shaolin In Music

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
21

Agree to disagree

That is correct.

While I never would say that any one individual is wrong outright, it is in my opinion (stress opinion) wrong for a human being to harm, intentionally, or through neglegence, another living, sentient being.

I never have been one to wholly and blindly devote myself to the study of scripture or sutra.

I find many of the “modern” disciplines of so-called Buddhism to be dualistic, and therefore contrary and conflicting with the very messages they are professing.

Buddhism is like a car. I guess if you feel it is necissary to travel in a Ferrari or stretch limo to get where you are going I can from my standpoint roll my eyes and shake my head.
I shouldnt, but I may.
As for me, Ill get where I have to go in my rusted out pinto, thanx.

Namaste
:

22

LOOPHOLE

So buddists can eat the meat of an already downed animal…two questions

  1. Could I employ the services of a pelican, a hawk, or a team of attack dogs to hunt for me?

  2. Do animals get bad karma from eating meat? Do all dogs go to heaven only if they eat tofu?

  3. What if your extra thankfull to the dead animal? What about plants? They are living creatures too, if you drive a car, your destroying living animals (cute ones) and destroying the Earth.

8Step Sifu

23

Since we have a few different views of buddhists responding, I’d love to have the chance to ask some questions of you all. Let me state that I practice no religion, nor do I claim to understand the doctrines of any.

First, I would like to know your views on the evolution of Asian martial arts predominantly within religious communities. Is it sufficient to say that monks needed to protect themselves, then through the teaching and understanding of the classics also became healthier, so continued the training? Or is there a more esoteric meaning, like only one who knows death can live, only one who knows hurt can heal?

Second, is ritualistic behavior (i.e. burning incense, keeping buddhas, mantras) important to you and why? And if so, how does it benefit your martial arts?

Third, I’d like to know some opinions of the current state of relation between buddhism and emerging capitalism in China. On the surface, these two seem at odds with one another, like buddhism and martial arts. Is one doomed to be subjugated by the other in a cycle of birth and death, or will one rise to balance its opposite?

Meltdawn

24

8 Step Sifu,

I’m not sure if I’m getting this right as this is just coming from a few semesters of philosophy in college, but I believe animals can eat meat because they are… well, animals and their instincts tell them too. If you are trying to transcend from animalistic things, then you may try to transcend from animilistic temptations. (ie be civilized) For example, say you are getting into a crowded elevator, and the most gorgeous girl you have ever seen squeezes in infront of you. Every one of your senses is being invaded by this girl… Every natural instinct in your body will be yelling at you to test out her guard right there in the elevator, but denying those natural instincts for a common good is what being human or “decent” is all about.

Buddhists may look upon eating meat the same way… Sure, we are equipped for the job, our instincts are telling us to, and it’s damn good, but to them it just isn’t civilized and wouldn’t be proper. It all comes down to a matter of choice; free will is a great thing. Some people choose to obey their instincts, others choose to deny them. Worst of all, some people are still slaves to their instincts. Mostly, we end up calling these people “convict”.

Hope that made a little sense. I’m writing this while trying to woof down food for lunch at work.

25

Hows this 8 Step…

I will answer your questions in order, to the best of my ability according to what I have been taught.

  1. by “employing the services” of another animal to do your “dirty work” you are actually using the animal as you would a gun or bow. The animal is now a weapon, your intent is to kill your prey.
    Karma is more than something that happens to you afteryou commit an act, karma involves everything taking place within you at that moment. Examine your intent. If your intent is to harm then the karmic outcome will be bad for you.

  2. Animals gain karma just like human beings do. However, animals are not necissarily subject to allof the same rules we are. Your actions in your life will determine your existence in the next. Human beings are the only entities according to our teachings (I have heard of some Buddhist sects accounting for animals as enlightened beings) who can attain Nirvana.
    Thus, an animal specifically designed for the hunting and consumation of flesh need not be subjected to the same rules as a human.
    What was the animal’sintent in taking the life of its prey?

  3. Being thankfull to the dead animal for what? For dying? This one I am not sure I understand. If you kill the animal and are then thankfull what does that accomplish? The wheel of life may continue, but we do not have the right to interfere with the individual being’s learning process. We should not step in and take the life of something prematurely, as we do not know at what point in their individual learning process they are. That would be like playing a comuter roll playing game for like a year, and then have someone pull the plug or force the system to crash before you can find out the end… the lesson has not been learned and we may cause that being to go to a realm or return in a form they would not have otherwise. Does that help?

  4. As for the plant thing I explained earlier that plants are not recognized as “sentient” life. I guess the simplist (though not really the most accurate) way of explaining this is though the plant has life energy, it does not have a soul.

  5. Finally, yes, driving a car is an incredibly violent act. I personally drive as little as possible, especially in my truck. Ordinarily I will take my wife’s car which is smaller and more fuel efficient. I ride a bike or I walk when I can. But I am still guilty. There are Buddhists who will not move at night for fear of stepping on things and killing them. Likewise it is intent. You cannot (according to my teaching) incur bad karma if you do not recognize something as a sentient being. That does not mean you can try and convince yourself that the spider in the corner is not a sentient being to justify smashing it.
    Likewise your intent when you drive a vehicle is not to kill as many things as possible is it?
    Though it isnt the best choice it is the greater good that matters.
    We drive a lot to take my daughter(who has many neurological disharmonies) to her medical appointments and therapy. This is an act of love and compassion.
    I drive to the donation centers where I give blood and palasma, it is simply too far to walk.
    In this society it is impossible to get away without some sort of transport. Just remember the intent. And be mindful of the moment.

I hope these helped my friend.

Namaste.

26

Meltdawn…

Taiji Mantis@aol.com
Drop me a line, I can send you an exerpt of my books second chapter regarding the relationship between Martial Arts and Religion.

27

Meltdawn, I can only answer from MY perspective.

As far as martial evolution in my Buddhist mind is concerned, I learned early on that the physical motions of Shaolin kung fu point to deeper truths (can’t be explained, but I’ll take a stab at it: “Tao”).

Throughout history, the Shaolin monks have realized that maximizing one’s awareness and manipulation of the “Tao” can be effectively accomplished by constantly expanding one’s kung fu repertoire.

Hence even today, Shaolin monks have been known to practice Western Boxing and NHB style grappling. To them (as well as myself), the source of the lesson is less important than the lesson itself.

I believe that ritualistic behavior is very important for ANYONE. Yet I don’t do anything specifically (i.e. burning candles, etc. . .)

This philosophy is best summed up by the Buddhist who stated “My master is incredible. When he is tired, he sleeps. When he is hungry, he eats”.

My “ritual” is living each moment fully.

As far as capitalism and Shaolin Buddhism in China goes, I would say that both exist in a symbiotic relationship.

I won’t get into the details of it due to space constraint

28

:slight_smile:

“Ch’an (Zen) belongs to neither past, present nor future. It has always been the way it is, and it can’t be expressed through words.”

“Everything under Heaven, Be it large or small, important or insignificant, has its own particular place and when it arrives in its rightful place, why ask why ? That is just how it is”

“Enlightenment, Self Cultivation and our daily activities are all part of the same thing. It is esential to understand the fact of enlightenment, and it is the maintenance of this attitude that is self cultivation. It is not because of self cultivation that we gain enlightenment.”

“Buddha nature is the original nature of all things. The true meaning of Ch’an(Zen) is to gain insight into the entire universe as it is and to be one with the truth. “

“By seeking the Buddha, we lose the Buddha. In seeking Bodhidharma we lose Bodhidharma. The most precious thing there resides inside you - it is yourself. In pursuing external objects or entities we lose sight of the self.”

Peace

Shi Chan Long

29

I too am practicing the Venerable Gotoma’s way and what I see is that alot of you are forgetting that it is a way of acceptance of others,thier spiritual AND personal beliefs.don’t condemn any one for marrying,eating meat, etc.that’s thier right and choice.Buddhas acceptance is what drew me to his teaching,frankly I got sick of all the other belief systems claiming thiers is the ONLY way.(kinda like the biasts of m/a systems in here)any ways just respect the paths of others and you’ll make yours richer.
thanks,bless you all.

“stop trying to hit me and HIT ME”

30

Apologies if I came across as sounding judgemental.

I stressed over and over that what I was saying came from my teaching…

If I offended I apologize.

I do need to add that though Buddhism is accepting, it is not a free ticket to do as you will.

Karma Brothers and sisters!

Im done.

Namaste,

31

Shaolinmaster, we are on the same wavelength.

32

Thanx for clearing that up…

By the way, what does “Namaste” mean? What language is it in?

Also in John Steibeck’s “Of Mice and Men” the big retard wouldn’t have been guilty of petting those animals to death because he was stupid because his intent was to love them.

Various people view the whole evil and intent thing differently. Some people would view a well meaning person that does great harm as good, while others consider a scrooge that picks up a baby to make it shut up to show “love” for the child through action. Two different views, best not to be too attatched to either of them.

Namaste- cuz its nasty

8Step Sifu

33

I honor the divinity within you.

Namaste is the sanskrit greeting/departure translating roughly to “The divine spirit within me bows or honors the divine spirit within you.”
Perhaps someone else has a better way of wording it.

34

The Words of a simple Monk…

I was thinking about this post the other day. The way the conversation turned to what is appropriate behavior for a Buddhist… Something about the whole vibe of it does not sit well with me. Believe me brothers and sisters I do not do this to be “right” and prove others “wrong.”

No matter how much one claims to (or for that matter actually does) study the Dharma, that does not make the killing of sentient beings any less an atrocity. I have been very saddened by the posts that I have seen here on occasion. and it is with this state of mind that I write this.

There is a simple monk who once said:

“There are cases of people who are very intelligent and have great knowledge of the Dharma, but this knowledge does not affect their minds. They do not put what they know into practice. The teacher becomes a role model and source of inspiration for our practice. It is possible to develop strong convictions by reading texts related to the practice of compassion, but when we meet a living person who has practiced it and can who can teach us the practice of compassion from his or her own experience, it inspires us more powerfully.”

This whole debate on what is right and what is not right for a devout Buddhist or monk should not be the issue. We should not be defending our positions. What I see is the same arguement I get whenever someone tries to tell me they are right for doing whatever it is they do in their lifestyle that injures a sentient being, be it eating meat, partaking in the use of controlled substances or whatever. It simply means “I dont want to change my behavior, and I am not going to.”

I beg you to meditate on these things. Those of you who profess to be practicing Buddhists please remember that there is more to being a buddhist than wearing beads and saying “Om.” It appears as though there were egos that got involved,(mine included)and were concerned about who was going to be “right.” Buddhism is a path. It does not need to be a path littered with dualistic chanting and ritual, nor does it have to be a path cluttered with aloof apathy of total detatchment. Detatchment does not equal love, and one does not need to be detatched from love to achieve freedom from suffering.

Remember that we are here to gain release from this life of suffering, and to aid other sentient beings in doing so. The same simple monk taught that One does not have to be a master to be a teacher. One should always be humble enough to learn from those less wise then themselves.

That Simple Monk is the fourteenth Dali Lama.

May peace be your guide and serentiy light your path.

Namaste.

35

I’m not buddist.

I come from a long line of meat eaters. My culture and religion permit and encourage me to eat meat. I don’t like too much red meat, but I got to tell you that thanksgiving turkey is still in the fridge and I love grippin some flesh and tearing it off the bone like a bird and devouring it. Sentient being or not, birds are retarded and decendents of dinosaurs and deserve to be punished. If we don’t show em whose boss, they might evolve back and we all know how that would be thanx to Jurrasic Park. I am always thankfull to the animal that is becoming part of me. I know someone said, What good will that do, it’s dead. Well thats at least respectfull. Sentient or not, we are not seperate being and are all part of the whole, I’m just stacking up some energy here before I die and release it back into the universe. You can say our four legged friends have souls, but trees hurt when their cut and if you step on bugs, your just as bad as someone knifing grandmothers in nursing homes according to karma. Lets be realistic, get back in our minivans, get on the car phones and run over slow children at play

8Step Sifu

36

True True…Zhen Shi Zhe Yang ..Brother TaijiMantis

Brother Mantis thank you for pondering and providing us with a touching and realistic view (This is now Buddhism..to Ponder in one’s mind and understand through thought rather than regurgitation). Your Teachers have placed you in the correct mindset to follow the path, one day you will develop the understanding of that path as no path but the path built before building the road that leads to it even though indeterminably it cannot be found.

My respects to you, fellow brothers and Buddhist teachers

8 Truths

Buddhist Disciples! At all times, day and night, sincerely recite and bear in mind these eight truths that cause great people to awaken.
The First Awakening: The world is impermanent. Countries are perilous and fragile. The body is a source of pain, ultimately empty. The five skandhas are not the true self. Life and Death is nothing but a series of transformations—hallucinatory, unreal, uncontrollable. The intellect is a wellspring of turpitude, the body a breeding ground of offenses. Investigate and contemplate these truths. Gradually break free of death and rebirth.
The Second Awakening: Too much desire brings pain. Death and rebirth are wearisome ordeals, originating from our thoughts of greed and lust. By lessening desires we can realize absolute truth and enjoy peace, freedom, and health in body and mind.
The Third Awakening: Our minds are never satisfied or content with just enough. The more we obtain, the more we want. Thus we create offenses and perform evil deeds. Bodhisattvas don’t wish to make these mistakes. Instead, they choose to be content. They nurture the Way, living a quiet life in humble surroundings—their sole occupation, cultivating wisdom.
The Fourth Awakening: Idleness and self-indulgence are the downfall of people. With unflagging vigor, great people break through their afflictions and baseness. They vanquish and defeat the four kinds of demons, and escape from the prison of the five skandhas.
The Fifth Awakening: Stupidity and ignorance are the cause of death and rebirth. Bodhisattvas apply themselves and deeply appreciate study and erudition, constantly striving to expand their wisdom and refine their eloquence. Nothing brings them greater joy than teaching and transforming living beings.
The Sixth Awakening: Suffering in poverty breeds deep resentment. Wealth unfairly distributed creates ill-will and conflict among people. Thus, Bodhisattvas practice giving. They treat friend and foe alike. They do not harbor grudges or despise amoral people.
The Seventh Awakening: The five desires are a source of offenses and grief. Truly great people, laity included, are not blighted by worldly pleasures. Instead, they aspire to don the three-piece precept robe and the blessing bowl of monastic life. Their ultimate ambition is to leave the home life and to cultivate the Path with impeccable purity. Their virtuous qualities are lofty and sublime; their attitude towards all creatures, kind and compassionate.
The Eighth Awakening: Like a blazing inferno, birth and death are plagued with suffering and affliction. Therefore, great people resolve to cultivate the Great Vehicle, to rescue all beings, to endure hardship on behalf of others, and to lead everyone to ultimate happiness.

These are the Eight Truths that all Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and great people awaken to. Once awakened, they even more energetically continue to cultivate the Path. Steeping themselves in kindness and compassion, they grow in wisdom. They sail the Dharma ship across to Nirvana’s shore, and then return on the sea of birth and death to rescue living beings. They use these Eight Truths to show the proper course for living beings, causing them to recognize the anguish of birth and death. They inspire all to forsake the five desires, and to cultivate their minds in the manner of Sages.
If Buddhist disciples recite this Sutra on the Eight Awakenings, and constantly ponder its meaning, they will certainly eradicate boundless offenses, advance towards Bodhi, and will quickly realize Proper Enlightenment. They will always be free of birth and death, and will abide in eternal bliss.

[This message was edited by ShaolinMaster on 11-28-00 at 12:09 AM.]

37

Hehe

Has anyone ever Heard that Red meat according to some thought in excess would place the organs in disharmony where the Liver (Anger) <Wood element> is placed under stress thus causing anger frustration and even violent intent at extremes.

Anyway it is up to whoever to do whatever (As buddhists we accept all and provide compassion for all as well be it from non understanding suffering or delusion…only you are responsible for your actions and outcomes from this life and past lifes.

Regards
Shi Chan Long

[This message was edited by ShaolinMaster on 11-28-00 at 12:12 AM.]

38

I just get angry when I don’t get red meat, or beer.

“I got no dukes” -the goat

39

8 step sifu…

I was very dissappointed in your response.
I am a native American. My ancestors too lived from the flesh of the land. And while it is my opinion that we have evolved to the point where we no longer have to do it(as you said lets hop in our minivans) because we can simply drive to the grocery store or what have you, that is not where my concern lies…

Whether or not you eat meat isnt the issue. It was my concern for Buddhist principle being misunderstood.

You however seemed to take great pleasure in being as graphic about something I feel strongly about as possible. And your casual use of words used to describe people with disharmonies was very disheartening. I make no secrets about having a disabled daughter. Firsthand I can tell you “retarded” people are not “stupid” people. Thus to compare someone like my daughter to a bird in intelligence is quite offensive, and innacurate.

My skin is thick, and I recognize tht you are probably not old enough yet to realize what you are doing.

As Shaolinmaster said, we determine our own Karma. Whether or not you believe it, thats the way it goes. You or I have little say in the matter.

Something to consider

Taiji Mantis

40

Taijimantis

Sorry,

I didn’t mean to offend your daughter. The truth is that I forget that there are people behind this forum. This place is a tool and I’ve used it to offend people in a way that I would never do in real life. Again I apologise. Yes, I did make a desriptive sentence of eating meat. Animals can eat meat and I am an animal. I feel deep regret whenever someone wastes meat or if my eyes are bigger than my stomach, but I like eggs in the morning and fish in the evening and it’s good. Being a vegitarian is ok, but it’s not for me. Personally a peacefull spirit is more important to me than following any kind of dogma. When a mosquito bites me, she risks getting slapped and I expect that any animal I hunted…oh yeah their defenseless and caged inhumanly, ok you got me thinking, I’ll stick to fish from now on…and lunch meat because it didn’t come from an animal anyway.

BTW- Too much red meat makes you like Rush Limbaugh.

8Step Si