# Shaolin Do and Forms Training **URL:** \ **Category:** Kung Fu Forum\ **Created:** [October 2, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203 "2003-10-02T22:02:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ninthdrunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ccd318/32.png) [@ninthdrunk](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ninthdrunk)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/21 "2003-10-03T00:47:11Z")
Felipe Bido- Awesome question! We definitely try to capture the essence of what the system we are practicing entails. (some will argue that is impossible since we dont learn from over 50 different masters!) Your example is a very good one. I love hsing ie and pa kua. It will obviously take me longer to master both at the same time as someone that does only one (in theory…hehehe). But to answer your question again, yes, we train the different systems within shaolin do differently. TIger is done much differently than crane, tiger is done differently than shantung black tiger (in my opinion there are serious differences) mantis is done differently than snake pa kua, and so on and so forth. I hope that answers your question! Ben ---
**Author:** ![First-Chevalier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@First-Chevalier](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/First-Chevalier)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/22 "2003-10-03T00:52:51Z")
Re: Shaolin Do and Forms Training > Originally posted by Water Dragon > [B]Hi. I would like to take a moment and talk about forms, and how I see them. I think that there may be a little confusion on this board between different groups. Perhaps there is just some confusion as to what a form and exactly what purpose it serves. I’d like to write about how a form fits into my training. First, let us define some terms. When I refer to the word “form” I am referring to one movement, commonly referred to as a posture. So, Shaolin Do Katas would be sets in that they contain various postures. _ **To me when I say ‘form’ I mean something like Yang 64 as a form or kata. What you call a ‘form’ I would call a movement or technique** _\* I am going to use a form called “Forward Marching” as an example as it is a fairly simple idea. The Forward March is a sweep, and the form involves stepping into a front stance and then kicking the leg straight out. To begin, the student must understand the technique, so you demonstrate what the techniques is. Once the technique is understood, you want to introduce the stances that support it. In this case, it is a forward stance and possibly a one legged stance that is similar to doing one legged pistol squats. At this time, the form is also introduced. The form is ran in a line which means that the movement is repeatedly done on both sides. The form is practiced in a variety of ways. It is done slowly for alignment, it is done as quickly as possible for speed, it is done for power, etc. Also, you need to introduce equipment training. We use the rock pole as a good training method. A rock pole is similar to a barbell with the weight on one end. To train Forward March, get your foot under the plate and lift the pole with your foot to build your sweeping strength. You can also sweep an old car tire around the yard. For the correct upper body work, you do belt cracking which will teach you how to manipulate their upper body as you sweep out their leg. Next, you practice two man drills to begin to build proficiency in the technique. There are a variety of drills, but they are designed to give you the ability to use the technique against a skilled, resisting opponent. Along with these drills you will do free wrestling, which is a form of sparring. Eventually you add the technique into a situation where you are punching and kicking as well as sparring. This will train one technique and the entire process to proficiency takes a couple months. Assume that you practice 100 times a day and it is 10,000 times to proficiency. This would be 100 days, or 3 months to become proficient at 1 form. _ **From where do you get the 10,000 times to proficency please?** _\* Now, let us assume that you have 30 forms in your set and you can train 3 forms at a time. This means it would take approximately 30 months, or 2 ½ years to get through the set so that you can actually use the techniques. According to the Shaolin Do website, you are required to learn 36 katas to reach first black belt. Therefore, it would take approximately 36x30x2.5 or 2700 years to earn a black belt in the system if you are learning as a fighting art. _ **Your math is correct but I still want to know where the 10,000 comes from and your conclusion is in error based on the fact that at 1st degree black you are but a ‘serious student’. No one claimed that at this level anyone was a master of anything, just serious about the learning process and have acquired enough of the base skills to move forward into more complex concepts.** _ This does not even include the required cardio, strength, or sensitivity training. _ **Okay, by definition, if you do all that you state above, the cardio and strength will come in due course. I don’t know about the sensitivity, but one would assume so based on teh two man drills.** _[/B] ---
**Author:** ![Starchaser107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@Starchaser107](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Starchaser107)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 12:53am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/23 "2003-10-03T00:53:23Z")
fwiw, shaolin chuan has hundreds ,possibly thousands of forms. really it doesnt matter if your system has 2 forms or 200, if you don’t know how to use the resources you have then , whats the point? there are many reasons for numerous forms…for example, the vast amount of traditional weapons. beginner , intermediate and advanced sets. it’s just a different method of training. some people would prefer to work one great solid form and this along with a few others would be among the core sets of the style. while others prefer to take baby steps , using simpler forms to introduce the style, which become progressively harder, also when practiced consecutively , train endurance. just some thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Felipe\_Bido](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/felipe_bido/32/122_2.png) [@Felipe\_Bido](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Felipe_Bido)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/24 "2003-10-03T00:56:16Z")
Thank you very much, ninthdrunk ---
**Author:** ![MonkeySlap\_Too](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e19adc/32.png) [@MonkeySlap\_Too](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/MonkeySlap_Too)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/25 "2003-10-03T01:11:38Z")
Ninthdrunk - in what ways are they different when you practice them? WD - I left off you got your @ss kicked by a SC 3 deng…😃 ---
**Author:** ![tnwingtsun](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/tnwingtsun/32/105_2.png) [@tnwingtsun](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/tnwingtsun)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:21am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/26 "2003-10-03T01:21:27Z")
I know this is a touchy issue…What the hell, Does SD have any White Eyebrow or Wing Chun forms? ---
**Author:** ![ninthdrunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ccd318/32.png) [@ninthdrunk](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ninthdrunk)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/27 "2003-10-03T01:27:55Z")
tnwingtsun- i dont know if they are actually part of the white eyebrow system, but we do teach yin yang dagger, and credit white eyebrow monk with its creation. also, as for wing chun, i am not sure…i have never heard about it. I do know that we teach northern fist, and didnt morning dawn take wing chun from that? Hope this helps out! Ben ---
**Author:** ![tnwingtsun](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/tnwingtsun/32/105_2.png) [@tnwingtsun](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/tnwingtsun)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/28 "2003-10-03T01:39:31Z")
ninthdrunk Which of the Southern fist forms does your school teach? ---
**Author:** ![T\_ai\_Ji\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d6d6ee/32.png) [@T\_ai\_Ji\_Monkey](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/T_ai_Ji_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/29 "2003-10-03T01:43:35Z")
Just curious. What TJQ forms does SD teach and from what TJQ style? ---
**Author:** ![ninthdrunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ccd318/32.png) [@ninthdrunk](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ninthdrunk)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/30 "2003-10-03T01:44:09Z")
You are speaking of Southern fist the system and not “southern kung fu” right? I dont know what the different forms are, but I have heard it mentioned. It is not something that is part of the curriculum to the point I have learned, so I cant be much help, sorry! Ben edit- we teach combined family 24, yang tai chi 64, yang tai chi sword, chen tai chi fan, chen 18, chen 83, yang tai chi broadsword, yang tai chi broadsword 2 man set, buddha family fist (of ultimate mercy) I think this is it, but for some reason I feel like I am forgetting something! ---
**Author:** ![Serpent](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/serpent/32/62_2.png) [@Serpent](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Serpent)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/31 "2003-10-03T01:44:15Z")
OK, there’s a few things here that I would like to comment on. Firstly, I don’t really agree with WD’s terminology. To me what he calls a form, I call a technique. I call a set pattern of several techniques a form. WD calls that a set. So, to use his termimology, I’m going to be talking about sets here. In my system there are well over 100 sets. However, my system is one coherent fighting style, using the same principles and methodology thorughout. When you learn the first set it is designed to develop a strong stance and foundation, to develop a powerful waist for power generation and to introduce some basic hand techniques. The second set that you learn is very similar to the first but is more mobile and has more complex techniques in it. If you learned the second set without the first, it would be quite difficult to learn. If you learn it after the first then you have a good basis to understand it. Subsequently, each set has its basis in previous sets. Often you will find the same techniques in several sets, often the same sequence of several techniques, however, they are preceeded and succeeded by other things and sometimes are delivered from different positions, with different footwork, different internal energy, etc. As you progress through the system, you are able to learn sets more and more quickly as certain aspects (i.e. the style) is recognisable. You are just constantly adding to your library of techniques and various applications for techniques previously learned. Subsequently, you build up a thorough knowledge of the style. When you practice the application of techniques in sparring or two man drills, etc., you start with a rudimentary knowledge of the techniques and, as you practice and learn more sets and develop a greater understanding, your knowledge and ability to apply your style realistically increases. This is the essence of learning a system or style. You might learn dozens of sets, but they are all related and build upon the same skill set. To learn dozens of sets from lots of different styles directly contradicts this learning method. Comments? ---
**Author:** ![Water\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ad7895/32.png) [@Water\_Dragon](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Water_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:53am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/32 "2003-10-03T01:53:24Z")
No comments, but two questions 1. What style do you train (sorry, I probaly should know) 2. When you go through your forms and find a technique you like, how do you build it into you. i.e. develop proficiency \*It’s unimportant if I call something a set and you call the same thing a form. What’s important is that we are both not using the same word for something totally diffetent. That’s what causes confusion as we are now both correct and incorrect at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![joedoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@joedoe](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/joedoe)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:53am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/33 "2003-10-03T01:53:45Z")
> Originally posted by Serpent > [B]OK, there’s a few things here that I would like to comment on. Firstly, I don’t really agree with WD’s terminology. To me what he calls a form, I call a technique. I call a set pattern of several techniques a form. WD calls that a set. So, to use his termimology, I’m going to be talking about sets here. In my system there are well over 100 sets. However, my system is one coherent fighting style, using the same principles and methodology thorughout. When you learn the first set it is designed to develop a strong stance and foundation, to develop a powerful waist for power generation and to introduce some basic hand techniques. The second set that you learn is very similar to the first but is more mobile and has more complex techniques in it. If you learned the second set without the first, it would be quite difficult to learn. If you learn it after the first then you have a good basis to understand it. Subsequently, each set has its basis in previous sets. Often you will find the same techniques in several sets, often the same sequence of several techniques, however, they are preceeded and succeeded by other things and sometimes are delivered from different positions, with different footwork, different internal energy, etc. As you progress through the system, you are able to learn sets more and more quickly as certain aspects (i.e. the style) is recognisable. You are just constantly adding to your library of techniques and various applications for techniques previously learned. Subsequently, you build up a thorough knowledge of the style. When you practice the application of techniques in sparring or two man drills, etc., you start with a rudimentary knowledge of the techniques and, as you practice and learn more sets and develop a greater understanding, your knowledge and ability to apply your style realistically increases. This is the essence of learning a system or style. You might learn dozens of sets, but they are all related and build upon the same skill set. To learn dozens of sets from lots of different styles directly contradicts this learning method. Comments? [/B] I would agree with most of that. I think you can learn sets from different styles as long as you don’t try and learn them all together. In a way, you need to immerse yourself into a style to truly learn it properly and it is kind of hard to do that if you are trying to learn things from multiple arts that may have conflicting principles. ---
**Author:** ![KC\_Elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/848f3c/32.png) [@KC\_Elbows](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/KC_Elbows)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:54am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/34 "2003-10-03T01:54:02Z")
ninthdrunk- I’m talking consistently in use, not once in a while this move comes out, but I mean the bread and butter movements. However, THAT discussion gets a little muddied once you’re talking principles. For instance, my style is largely made up of two forms(individual forms) of footworks and three forms(individual forms) for handwork, which contain the core principles, and a myriad of variations thereof. As such, I constantly pull off different applications using those, but almost always it’s a combination of those, with few exceptions. So yeah, it’s good that certain moves come out once in a while. However, once in a while is a lot different than mastery. And odds are those moves come out once in a while because you are well set up due to the things you have worked to “perfection”. As for a master, I’ve met a lot of them, and I’ve never met one who simply fought like a kata full contact. I’ve also never met anyone, master, grandmaster, even pope, who was equally proficient with all aspects of their style- everyone has things they’re better at, even “masters”. And just about every student I’ve ever seen has certain things they are good at because of mindset, body type, or what have you, and once they were trained, they were better at that aspect than their teachers, assuming they had good teachers. One member had a quote in their sig a while back, I believe it was a DaVinci quote, which was “poor is the student who does not surpass their teacher”, or something to that extent. In his field, DaVinci was a far greater master than most of the martial artists called masters are in their respective fields, so I’m willing to bet he’s right. The goal is to find how the style shines in you, not your teacher. Now, a good master knows how to teach different body types the style, but he or she can never be that different body type, and likewise should not use the style as if he or she were, just as students whose bodies are drastically different than their teachers should find the way the style works for them. However, 20 is probably a bit of an arbitrary number. Still, learning ten hand sets is too many for my taste. If someone doesn’t know enough about fighting to teach others from one set, either their understanding of that set is insufficient, or that set could be more comprehensive. My personal taste is that I can think of no reason to have a set that doesn’t encompass fighting in as comprehensive way as possible, except historical preservation, which I leave to others. For self awareness/personal growth types, they’ll learn more from studying one thing of great depth than many shallow things. So, aside from one comprehensive form for each type of fighting in the style(open hand, various weapons), nothing else is needed, imo. As an example, there are external forms that were recently(last 10-15 years, my guess) made to lead to the core form in my style. That’s all well and good, the core form can seem confusing, but if, instead of working on those external forms, the students were just working on the core movements, the chi kungs and the footwork, they’d be better at the core form than those who first do these external forms, because the external forms only give the appearance of being the style, and only someone who understands the core form can give them more than just that appearance, and if they understand the core form to that extent, they could just make their own external forms, and don’t need them, and never needed them. As for two man sets, never liked them. Again, another unnecessary step between forms and actual practice, imo. However, some are neat to watch. EDIT: the reason I don’t like two man sets is that most of the ones I’ve seen have the annoying tendency to have moments when one of the practitioners should clearly have broken the other, but didn’t. As much as they teach applications, I think that these long chain of offensive failures must carry with them some disadvantages as training methods. Since we fight how we train and all. However, some, like chin na flows, I do enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![ninthdrunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ccd318/32.png) [@ninthdrunk](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ninthdrunk)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:55am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/35 "2003-10-03T01:55:19Z")
Serpent- Im just curious… How many moves are there typically in a form? How different are the forms as you progress through the levels of your system? I have definitely noticed what you are talking about as far as recognizing and learning different forms becomes a lot easier as you progress. This is one of the benefits of learning different styles, you learn how most of the systems are actually very similar in nature…to a certain degree obviously. When do you feel that it would be appropriate to learn multiple styles at the same time in the way that shaolin do does? Ben ---
**Author:** ![Serpent](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/serpent/32/62_2.png) [@Serpent](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Serpent)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/36 "2003-10-03T01:58:26Z")
> Originally posted by Water Dragon > [B]No comments, but two questions 1. What style do you train (sorry, I probaly should know) 2. When you go through your forms and find a technique you like, how do you build it into you. i.e. develop proficiency \*It’s unimportant if I call something a set and you call the same thing a form. What’s important is that we are both not using the same word for something totally diffetent. That’s what causes confusion as we are now both correct and incorrect at the same time. [/B] Yeah, that’s why I made a point of establishing the terminology I was going to use. If I find a tech that I particularly like in a set, I will try it out in sparring. I will try to get a partner and practice it under “controlled conditions” and then try to apply it in sparring. Whenever I practise my sets I always visualise the guy I’m fighting so that the techs are being applied in my mind’s eye too. Is that what you mean. Check your PM by the way. ---
**Author:** ![tnwingtsun](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/tnwingtsun/32/105_2.png) [@tnwingtsun](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/tnwingtsun)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/37 "2003-10-03T01:58:46Z")
“southern kung fu” ---
**Author:** ![Serpent](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/serpent/32/62_2.png) [@Serpent](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Serpent)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/38 "2003-10-03T02:02:33Z")
> Originally posted by ninthdrunk > Serpent- Im just curious… How many moves are there typically in a form? It varies greatly from a few dozen to over a hundred depending on the form. > How different are the forms as you progress through the levels of your system? Some are very similar, others are seemingly very different, teaching new skill sets to incorporate into your body of knowledge. > I have definitely noticed what you are talking about as far as recognizing and learning different forms becomes a lot easier as you progress. This is one of the benefits of learning different styles, you learn how most of the systems are actually very similar in nature…to a certain degree obviously. I think this is where you miss out on a lot. Sure, all roads lead to Rome, but you are not learning the essential essence of each system as you are melding them all into one. > When do you feel that it would be appropriate to learn multiple styles at the same time in the way that shaolin do does? Never. ---
**Author:** ![KC\_Elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/848f3c/32.png) [@KC\_Elbows](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/KC_Elbows)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 2:07am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/39 "2003-10-03T02:07:53Z")
It just seems like learning so many styles, one should, from early on, at least choose to specialize in one. That way, if they can manage not to get confused, at least they’ve got experience in something, instead of being a beginner at a great number of things. Is that how SD does it, you specialize to some extent? ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Dragon](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/royal_dragon/32/49_2.png) [@Royal\_Dragon](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Royal_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203/40 "2003-10-03T02:08:09Z")
WD, Although I do agree your method of “One technique at a time” does work, I personnally feel that learning several long forms soon after becoming proficient with the basics is a better way to go. This gives you a large variety of material to survey and exlore. By doing this, you can quickly zero in on techniques that are already compatible with the way YOU think and move. Once you zero in on a small set of techniques that really suite you, you can begin to narrow your focus on those exclusively. By working on tehcniques that already fit you, you START the game already being halfway there. By doing it your way, you are pretty much forced to really really work to master techniques that may not even be compatible with you anyway. I feel it’s wasting good energy on something not practical for you. Better to start with techs you already grasp, and train them to natural perfection. Oh, on termonology, the word “Forms” is short for “Formal Routines”. individual moves are “Techniques”, not forms. Long sets of techniques strug together make “Formal Routines”, or “Forms” for short. [Previous page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/shaolin-do-and-forms-training/23203.md?page=3)