Cern Sao Do ?
Hello MightyB,
I also study 7 Star but have never come across a two hand sabre form before , could you elaborate more on the form Cern Sau Do that you know? 
Hey, I was wrong…
I just went to the Midland Martial Arts Open and I got a chance to talk to my Sihing who knows both the Cern Sau Do and the Cern Sau Do Doi Chern.
I have to eat crow a little bit here because he said that my Sigung said that the Cern Sau Do form that we do is a military form, but… it comes from Lau Fat Man’s Eagle Claw.
My Sigung Chung Ho Yin was a master of both Eagle Claw and Praying Mantis, but he only openly taught Praying Mantis. By my Sihing’s recollection, he said that it was a set that Lau Fat Man taught to the military to fight the Japanese. It’s a counter for the samurai sword.
I really can’t elaborate too much in words, it’s more of something that you have to see.
Like I said, I’m a little out of the loop since I had to move away and I didn’t treat my martial arts study like an academic thesis… I’m much more of a do-er rather than a researcher. If it’s good kung fu, I like to train in it, I don’t need to talk about it or research it, I just like to do it.
Anyway… the Cern Sau Do form that I know is from Eagle Claw.
I was wrong, maybe 7 Star doesn’t have a two-handed Saber.
– Kurt
Kurt
No crow needed, you just taught us something new. My main question is this… what is the difference between whether or not the form comes from Eagle Claw or Mantis? Are there specific moves indicative of the Mantis or Eagle Claw?? Or are we talking purely what styel and from whom stuff was passed down?
Thanks
Jake 
PS Anyone have clips they can share so we can all get an idea?
Like I have asked before. What makes a weapons set Mantis?
I hope it is a more clear cut answer than what is mantis 
WHF’s book No 3.
Most of you know about the book on Military Da Dao by WHF which was published in 1955 and he has mentioned that it was created by LGY based on the Chan Ma Dao of FYT.
But there is another of his book published 4 years earlier in 1951 titled
“[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]” = A write up of Tang Lang Quan Shu.
In this book, on page 39 and 40 under the Paragraph “A Discussion on the Da Dao Dui” he said that 3 or 4 of LGY’s students were teaching in the military and they require a Da Dao form to teach. Since, there isnt any in the past LGY created one based of the Chan Ma Dao of FYT. The form was made simple and practical for military use. At the same time, Chin Woo invited a few martial artists to contribute to a Da Dao form and due to many cooks it is found to be complicated and thus unpractical. That form was named as “Lian He Da Dao” or Combined Da Dao.
MightyB,
Actually, I don’t think you have to eat that crow after all. The “Gwun Jung Dai Doe” set in the WHF curriculum was said to be a military taught form to counter the Japanese katana. Perhaps your sihing remembered the history incorrectly. Earlier in this thread we already discussed the history of this set. I would suggest asking Sibak Henry Chung. Please give him my regards. It was a great pleasure for us when he visited us in NYC.
Mantid1,
Your question about the weapon sets is an interesting and difficult one to answer. Do the weapon sets have stylistic differences that define them as part of their respective styles? In general, weapons are more easily defined by Northern and Southern differences. For example, the northern spear is held with the butt of the spear in the right hand whereas the southern spear is held with the butt in the left. However, that said, I think if you were to watch a wing chun practitioner fighting with the long staff using their “six point five staff” and a hung gar practitioner fighting with a long staff using their “fifth brother eight trigrams staff”, you could tell the difference and maybe even identify who is who if you have seen enough of both. The same could be said of other styles. The weapon techniques may not necessarily follow the same theories and principles as their empty hand counterparts, but certainly they can be said to be identifiable by style. Well, anyway, this is my initial thought on this subject. I’ll have to analyze our forms in this regard a little more and get back to you on this. Anyone else have an idea?
Mantiscool,
That was an awesome find. While I have perused through that book several times, I did not remember that article. Thanks for pointing it out. I just took out the book and will have to re-read it again. I’m sure this helps out Sifu Cottrell as well since he now has a form name to reference as well as the name of the JingMo instructor who sought out the creation of their form.
Vance
YM
“I would suggest asking Sibak Henry Chung.”
Why not just ask Master Chow, he was a student of WHF in the 40’s, and a contemporary to shifu Chung Ho Yin, he’s the one preforming the form mentioned…if anyone know’s he does!!
It doesnt hurt to ask,
WM
Mantiscool,
Thank you for this additional information. It makes clear that the author considered the two Da Dao sets to be of separate origin and also establishes the origin to be of the Chan Ma Dao and not the Miao Dao. The old books continue to have influence and guide us. I wonder if WHF ever thought that they would have such a long life and dynamic?
INdeed as YM has said, this helps out a great deal. Thank you for providing a copy of the reference, also. It means that for the research to continue I should continue looking for the Qingwu Da Dao as a historical referent, but also should focus on Chan Ma Dao sets among Yantai’s Qixing Tanglang Quan families. I will let you guys know what I find!
(Just when you think you have nothing to do…)
Great information,
Steve Cottrell
Hello all ,
Thanks for the info Mantiscool . I am interested in the CHAN MA DAO form as it is something I am not familiar with . Is there any more information available on this set ?
Hi WM,
The form illustrated by Master Chow is definitely not the same form we have been discussing. I know the WHF “Gwun Jung Dai Doe” set and that is not the set he is showing on the site. I suggested MightyB check with his Sifu since that is his source for the set we are discussing now. I know the thread originally started asking about Master Chow’s set but it seems to have diverged from it since no one else has recognized the set yet and we started talking about the two handed sabre in general for the 7* lineage. This set is the only one I know of not counting the Jahm Ma Doe and the Gwan Doe.
YM
Feelerstrike
I do a Zhan Ma Dao (Horse Cutter Knife) set. What questions do you have, or is this pertaining to your specific lineage’s set? Let me know if I can help.
Jake
Hello Three Harmonies,
I am interested to know more on the Chan Ma Dao set of Fan Xu Dong as I have never come across it before . We have a Pu Dao set but I am not familiar with a Ma Dao . I would be interested to know the difference between the two weapons .
I have seen illustrations of a set by WHF for the Da Dao or two handed sabre , are these weapons related ?