Realistic training

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Every one seems to know what is wrong for training. Some say sparing does nothing, some say forms don’t, others say drills are no good.

What do you do and why do you think it prepares you for the street.

I Spar, everything from point to full contact depending on the level of the person I fight. I also do sparing with grappling, takedowns and submissions.
I love to spar and try to get in a few fights every day.

To develop the skills I teach the techniques and we drill them. This will include two man kicking drills, two man punching drills (Intercepting drills/passing drills…), the usual self defense techniques drilled on each other, and grappling drills (These are a chain of submissions of about 20 submissions each put together like a kata done on each other, it teaches how to flow from one submission to another)

Naturally in our self defense techniques we practice the groin shots and eyes gouges…but in sparing we leave these out for obvious reasons.

As far as contact, it depends on the level of the person, as you go up it get harder. For power there are many methods, bag work…..

We do a lot of techniques inorder to make the motions natural. Sparring alone will not bring out all the skills you need to develop and this is reflected by drilling with techniques on each other. the same is said for throws, if you practice on a resisting partner everytime you will not get the basics of it down, so you drill on each other many times before a live situation.

This is not too in-depth on the training but gives an idea of some of it. This also does not include weapons training.

What are your training methods to prepare for a real encounter?

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As a after thought. Sparing, techniques, drills, bagwork… I see them as all nessesary. Just different training tools that combine to help make the whole.

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Here’s my current workout plan. Hopefully it can give some idea. My time frames for each workout are not set in stone, but usually last in the neighborhood of 3 to 6 months. At that point, I re-evaluate and usually change a couple things around. Things also come up. I’m actually doing less partner work than I would like, but good training partners are hard to come by. I’m pretty much limited right now to once a week with live bodies, so this is my “ideal: plan for right now. (ie, this point in my training)

I like to pull just a few techniques and center my workouts around them. For this cycle, I’m using the following throws: Neck Surround (over the back throw), Diagonal Cut (reaping throw with the foot), and Mopping (basically a neck control) For strikes, I’m concentrating on the jab, Taiji body punch (Think of a body shot with more of an uppercut mechanic in the leg) and horizontal elbow.

The first thing I do, is look at the specific auxiliary methods to train the technique. For throws, there’s a piece of equipment called the rope pulley, a method called belt cracking, and a piece of equipment called the rock pole. For strikes, I use a heavy bag and rope pulley. I’m not a boxer and my goal is to get in a solid shot and go for the clinch, not box somebody. I also use one movement forms to represent each aspect of the technique.

I’ll pull the specific exercises for each tech I’m practicing and group than by method. By this I mean, I won’t use the belt cracking or rope pulley drill that is specific to the hip throw. I’m not concentrating on that tech right now.

I also always do a warm up set designed to loosen all the joints, body weight exercises, (similar to Ashtanga Yoga) and cardio.

My work out will now look something like this:

Mon: warm up set. Skip rope for 15 minutes. Strength training. Rope pulley. Rock pole.
Tues: warm up set. Heavy bag. Single moving posture. Single tech work with a partner.
Wed: warm up set. Skip rope 10 minutes, Freestyle Tui Shou, Contact sparring.
Thurs: Same as Monday
Fri: Same as Tuesday
Sat: Same as Wed combined with Monday
Sun: class usually new body work, tech reviews, and sparring.

After each workout, I also do a set of stance holding as a cool down. I focus more on a stretch than perfect posture. Almost like Yogic Asanas. Try it, it’s a different feel.

cont…

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Now, I workout every day. This is different than many pure western style workouts. The trick is, I don’t push my self quite as hard. More in line with Pavel Tatsouline’s (sp?) theory if you’re familiar with it. The entire workout takes about an hour.

The technique oriented exercises help build my attributes for the techs I’m working on. (note: there’s a lot of crossover to other techs here.)

The form work is for structure and mechanic. The idea is that the tech should work without strength.
Tui Shou is to build my sensitivity. It helps build my entry skills as well as let’s my body choose the correct application by feel. It is a rare thing for a tech to look like it’s textbook application in a live setting.
Free sparring is to build my ability to “gauge opportunity” and figure out how to apply the principle of the technique in a live situation. The Tui Shou and sparring are back to back because they balance each other out, A Yin for the Yang so to speak.

I also do a daily set of Nei Gong to build the power mechanisms inherent to my style, Generally, these run off a 100 day cycle.

I also like to “play with my power” when I’m bored. I’ve found that this experimentation has been the most beneficial aspect as it helps my personalize my skills. Think of it as ad hoc shadow boxing (throwing)

Yes, it’s a gross over simplification. But it should give at least a rough idea as to what I think is important.

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I’ve come to the conclusion that realistic is a relative term. Everybody has their method of training, and all will swear that it’s realistic. I think what it comes down to is people not training everything. I.E. If you only do forms, the you are not training realistically because you have no fight time. If you are only sparring, you aren’t training realistically because you aren’t training proper technique, and are merely brawling. If you don’t do drills, then you will lack proper timing. the training methods build on eachother. Arts like muay thai and boxing may not have traditional forms, but they utilize shadowboxing, which builds proper technique and also your stamina, which also pulls fitness into the equation. They are all small parts of a greater whole. If you train them all diligently, you will be okay.

The other issue, especially nowadays, is the length of time it will take you to learn how to defend yourself effectively. Just because it may take longer does not mean it’s not realistic, only that the steps toward reaching proficiency are different - not inferior.

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Due to my current situation I am pretty close to Water Dragons level of “partner activity”, every one or two weeks of late, sinceI left JKD.

With some new and exciting additions in my training, I am hoping that this will change soon in the future, so I can get back to a more group based sparring and situational drill format.

Something I feel a bit naked without right now.

From a solo level I am working on a lot of impact training and role-play work, heavy bag, my new spar pro dummy, and the Burmese war post out back.

Trying to develop my “bone seekers”.

A bit of shadow boxing and open air drilling as well goes into the current mix.

Free-style stick and knife work, as well as a bit of cutting practice on a cool tire dummy wrapped up in carpet I have worked up, quick draw drills, on my knees, on my back, different grips, etc.

I have also been re-drilling the **** out of the hand stick the last few days since Rogue gave me the bug again.

I normally do free weights about 4 times a week, but as of late, due to work, it has only been about 2-3, something I need to correct, as well as add on more cardio and cut out the soda pop.

I am going to be streamlining, changing and adding a few things coming up soon, but this is what I do, not stuck in stone though, untell I can get my stuff together.

Right now a lot more solo introspection and conceptual thinking than normal.

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Burmese war post?

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I honestly do think that full contact sparring is necessary to prepare yourself for the street.

When I began taekwondo (i know what your thinking,“ok, here we ago”, so just listen) i started with simple patterns, simple one step sparring, and kicking mainly on pads, not neccessarily, full contact sparring.

So i really didnt think that i would ever be prepared for the street considering that i wasnt sure how to perform all these techniques and kicks on an actual person. would they work? would they hurt? are they actaually effective?

until i started to spar others. I was a yellow belt, if i may say so, when i started sparring the red and black belts in my club, mainly cos they were older and i was about 15, so there was no point in sparring the younger kids, but the point is, my confidence as well as exp. increased dramatically when i actually began fighting full contact martial arts.

Which means i know which kicks hurt most , which are likely to be most effective and certainly how to counter-attack.

But naturally which each martial art the technique differs.

Tae Li.:wink:

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correction: “with” each martial art, the technique differs.

Tae Li;)

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Sevenstar basically just provided the best answer to this question I have ever heard. How’d ya get so smart Bro?

BlackJack has some cool azz toys. Now we MUST get together!!! (or at least send me blueprints)

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WaterDragon:

Did you ever get my e-mail about us hooking up?? I sent it a few weeks ago.

I also want to talk with you about some things I “might” be putting together here in our area that a few of the local or semi-local martial artists might be intereted in.

I have described the war post on here a few times in the past, some people have different terms for it, what it is in a nutshell is a cheap and easy to make enviromental conditioning device used in Bando and Lathewae, I am sure that some Chinese or other culture systems have something similar to it.

Find a sturdy tree in your backyard or a park where no one well give a ****, something which you can strike and kick, something with some real meat behind it.

Take either big & thick canvas sacks of cheap rice or sand and duck tape them or tie them to the tree so they form a tight padding, I really prefer duck tapping, though it can get messy when it rains.

Here is what this simulates, the canvas represents skin, the sand or rice represents muscle and organ and the tree represents solid bone.

War post training allows you to really hit something that will not give way, to work on your penetration abilities, to drive all the way to the bone, in essence to get your strikes to become “bone seekers”.

For me it is also very psychologicaly refreshing and different from other striking tools, maybe it is being outside at 10.00 p.m. on a Autumn night with the cool breeze on your skin and the clouds in the sky, I don’t know but it feels more primal.

I am still new to it and growing into the training but it is the most fun striking device I have ever had and the cheapest to.

The Spar Pro was a gift for Xmas and it is very cool.

The Tire Dummy was shown to me by a friend of mine who swears by them, you can get very creative with these by using pcv piping or cheap like me, with a bucket for a base, cement, a post and a bunch of used and free tires and carpet for extra “skin” on the target.

They can fit in a garage or in the backyard.

When I get a new house, I have been looking for awhile now, I will have more room and then start to play with some cool ideas, now I just try to get by.

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Originally posted by Black Jack
as well as add on more cardio and cut out the soda pop.

D.amn it’s good to hear someone say pop again. People poke fun of you down here for saying that. I miss that area.

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Sevenstar, thats thats pretty much how I see it. There is no one way, but it is important that you use the many tools available to you.

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What do you do and why do you think it prepares you for the street. What are your training methods to prepare for a real encounter?

Ensure the basics can actually be used before anything else is taught. This establishes an amazing foundation on which the student can reference everything else.

Two-person training that progresses to a free-form sparring scenario. The most important aspect that binds the first day of training to the 10th year of training is having the student consistently challenged.

nospam.
:cool:

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Black Jack,
Your routine sounds a lot like my own! :smiley: But I usually put in a lot of ground flow drills, suplex drills, mount and pound, etc on the grappling dummy.

When I do spar I try to pick different things I want to work on, and drill them while the guy comes at me with the gloves on. Sometimes, even though I may be drilling only one thing, we still continue on when it goes to the ground, etc.

The “bone seeker” thing sounds interesting! I think I’m going to try it.

Ryu

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If you listen to everyone, you’ll get one opinion per person…some say they can make forms work, some say it’s useless, same with drills, sparring etc…
So where’s the truth? Probably in the middle…
Here’s how I see martial arts…it’s like religion: you got to believe, you got to do it and believe hard. Like in religion, maybe you’ll never get the chance to see if your belief was right, or maybe when you see it it’s too late…
The only thing that can tell you if your practice is useful in fights are…fights…but the problem is that if it doesn’t work out, does it mean your practice is no good? Who lost, you or the practice? It would be too stupid to drop a valid stuff (whatever it is) just because you lost a fight…but is it valid if you lost? In a fight you have no time to analyze why things work or not, you just see if it did work or not…and by the time you start to analyze it in the comfort of your kwoon, it’s gone, you’re not in a fighting situation, you might lose the essence.
If you win, you’ll be convinced that it is useful…but what if you won by chance? or by a natural talent? or by a failure from your opponent? You cannot be sure about that either…
So when you see things both ways, there’s no way to know what really works, and what doesn’t…
So all you got to do is practice, and believe, believe, believe…