# Re: Kung Fu counters against takedowns **URL:** \ **Category:** Kung Fu Forum\ **Created:** [September 30, 2002, 9:31am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316 "2002-09-30T09:31:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![friday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dec6dc/32.png) [@friday](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/friday)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 9:31am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/1 "2002-09-30T09:31:45Z")
hi everyone i know ive posted something similar but i want to know this time what kung fu defences u guys have tried against takedowns particiularly against BJJ, wrestlers, other grappling arts, shuai jiao, etc. i’m not interested in defences from styles other than kung fu. i’m not interested in theoretical defences only ones that u have actually tried and worked. i can see how strikes to the neck etc can stop an inexperienced or beginner grappler/groundfighter but what kung fu defences work against quick shoots by BJJ and wrestlers, other grapplers who smash u to the ground or try to put u out of your element by putting u to the floor? thanks friday ---
**Author:** ![SevenStar](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sevenstar/32/114_2.png) [@SevenStar](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/SevenStar)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 9:34am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/2 "2002-09-30T09:34:00Z")
someone posted pics of a cma guy (piqua, I believe) defending adouble leg. search for it. ---
**Author:** ![friday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dec6dc/32.png) [@friday](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/friday)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 9:47am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/3 "2002-09-30T09:47:30Z")
hmmm seven can u give me some more details? some mroe hints? just tried looking couldn’t find it thanks ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 1:48pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/4 "2002-09-30T13:48:33Z")
What kind of takedowns? Aren’t you learning all sorts of takedowns in your own art? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Xebsball](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/xebsball/32/90_2.png) [@Xebsball](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Xebsball)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 4:28pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/5 "2002-09-30T16:28:34Z")
Pi Quan and the Pimp Quan variation. ---
**Author:** ![Phrost](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/phrost/32/323_2.png) [@Phrost](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Phrost)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 4:25am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/6 "2002-10-01T04:25:27Z")
May edition of Inside Kung Fu magazine has a Hsing-I technique that would supposedly stop a shot attempt. It looked really fishy though, because in order for the technique to work, the Hsing-I guy would have to be able to A. nullify/withstand the momentum of his opponent simply knocking him over, which is unlikely in the case of a 200+lb attacker against the average 150 lb Kung Fu guy, and B. the “shooter” would have to be aiming his head directly into the midsection of his target, which as anyone that’s taken even highschool wrestling would know, isn’t the way you execute a takedown. ---
**Author:** ![jon](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/jon/32/206_2.png) [@jon](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/jon)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 5:06am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/7 "2002-10-01T05:06:27Z")
Hi Friday I need to give you a buzz ive just been flat out, promice i will very soon. Takedown defences are often pretty similar accross various arts. For a double leg the most effective thing to do is to simply get the heck out of the way and try to lead them into the ground. However if the opponent is skilled this is not really an option. For a commited double leg you will really need to learn to sprawl, this is simply dumping your upper body weight ontop of your opponent as they rush in while similtainously throwing your legs backwards. This will often bring both of you to the ground but your position if done correctly will be advantages. CMA variant is basicaly the same but your try to force your opponent down AND backwards into a low tucked postion which combined with the impact from the fall will rupture there spine. Obviously this variant aint so usefull in the ring Most variations on hip throws can be avoided by simply shifting your weight and staying on the move. Its also possible to shift your possition and try to get your hip under theres to actualy reverse the throw in your favor. Still this requires practice before it becomes usefull it also often simply turns into a wrestling match with you both going down (lol least with me). One of the most important things to remember when dealing with takedown defences is that you need to be constantly aware of real world physics. For example if i shoot a double leg and manage to lift you off the ground then obviously you aint sprawling no more and you now need to find a way to effect the fall in your favor. Also you must be constantly aware of your centre of gravity and avoid allowing your opponent to get underneith it. Still the best real world weapon in close quaters to utalise against as good take down defence is a heavy offence in knee and elbow techniques. These are the bodys natural battering rams and are very hard to defend against if employed full power. In other words avoid letting your opponent get a strong grip on you in first place by generaly making life a missery with a constant barrage of hard hitting elbows and knees. Most people will then try to get out of the range of those and then bingo your back in your prefered element. ---
**Author:** ![SevenStar](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sevenstar/32/114_2.png) [@SevenStar](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/SevenStar)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 5:43am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/8 "2002-10-01T05:43:45Z")
found it [http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=16028](http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=16028) ---
**Author:** ![SevenStar](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/sevenstar/32/114_2.png) [@SevenStar](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/SevenStar)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 5:47am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/9 "2002-10-01T05:47:21Z")
> Originally posted by Phrost > [B]May edition of Inside Kung Fu magazine has a Hsing-I technique that would supposedly stop a shot attempt. It looked really fishy though, because in order for the technique to work, the Hsing-I guy would have to be able to A. nullify/withstand the momentum of his opponent simply knocking him over, which is unlikely in the case of a 200+lb attacker against the average 150 lb Kung Fu guy, and B. the “shooter” would have to be aiming his head directly into the midsection of his target, which as anyone that’s taken even highschool wrestling would know, isn’t the way you execute a takedown. [/B] I know of a takedown where you put your head into the opponent’s midsection - the head is used as a lever, and the takedown is similar to a double leg. since you are going straight forward with the head and not to the side of the body, you don’t have to worry about getting guillotined. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Jamieson](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/david_jamieson/32/19_2.png) [@David\_Jamieson](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/David_Jamieson)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 8:29am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/10 "2002-10-01T08:29:22Z")
Here is a single technique that will defeat all other techniques. Don’t fight. As for “the shoot”. If you are going to defend against it, you have to train against it. If you want to train for real, train for real and use resisting partners. Be courteous and try to minimize any damage as much as possible. But the “slow” method of training works too. It’s just slower and you will not see the benefits from it until you are so good that you never have to use it. Which brings us back to that first technique i mentioned. 😃 peace ---
**Author:** ![friday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dec6dc/32.png) [@friday](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/friday)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 8:37am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/11 "2002-10-01T08:37:13Z")
hi 🙂 yeah i’ve sort of started training with some guys who do other styles. i’ve had the takedowns done on me taking a passive perspective. ive also been given some tips. i’m just trying to get more ideas to try so that next time when we don some gloves etc i’ll actually try to defend against them. Braden - yes we do do some takedowns in my style but thats not the focus. Kung lek - yah i’m going to train against takedowns. i odn’ think there is much margin for error particularly when your main game is standup thanks seven for the link 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Merryprankster](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/merryprankster/32/102_2.png) [@Merryprankster](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Merryprankster)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 9:27am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/12 "2002-10-01T09:27:31Z")
> CMA variant is basicaly the same but your try to force your opponent down AND backwards into a low tucked postion which combined with the impact from the fall will rupture there spine. I always get a kick out of this stuff. Do you really believe this? Let’s be a little more realistic. What you are describing MIGHT happen, but generally speaking, is unlikely. I’m sure that’s what you meant. > Still the best real world weapon in close quaters to utalise against as good take down defence is a heavy offence in knee and elbow techniques. These are the bodys natural battering rams and are very hard to defend against if employed full power. > In other words avoid letting your opponent get a strong grip on you in first place by generaly making life a missery with a constant barrage of hard hitting elbows and knees. Most people will then try to get out of the range of those and then bingo your back in your prefered element. I agree with the above only so far as you are attending to your balance FIRST, then attacking with knees and elbows. Trying to unload knees and elbows on a rapidly closing opponent whose sole intention is to smother your strikes and shut the space down is not a simple matter. I’ve also found that there are two typical responses of the untrained, not one–they will either back up, or they will continue to attempt to smother. How many times have you witnessed footage of or were present for a fight, and watched a guy take a few shots then dive for the body to stop the strikes? It happens as often as backing out. Lastly, why train something only an untrained opponent would do? A trained takedown type is going to keep closing the distance aggressively while trying to take you down because he knows that jamming your strikes is the best way to accomplish both his offensive and defensive objectives. Just my 2 cents. Note–I am not advocating to learn wrestling, do whatever you want. I personally believe that if you attend to your balance FIRST, you may follow up however you wish, but trying to do anything else amounts, 90% or more of the time, to winding up on your butt. ---
**Author:** ![chingei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@chingei](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/chingei)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 12:54pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/13 "2002-10-01T12:54:08Z")
> Originally posted by jon > > CMA variant is basicaly the same but your try to force your opponent down AND backwards into a low tucked postion which combined with the impact from the fall will rupture there spine. oh, of course it will. ---
**Author:** ![old\_jong](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/old_jong/32/86_2.png) [@old\_jong](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/old_jong)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 1:21pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/14 "2002-10-01T13:21:34Z")
Most Kung Fu styles are boxing arts devised to box against other boxing arts!..Unless you freeze the other guy before he can shoot or show perfect timing and precision you should consider alternate defenses such as the sprawll and practice them.Just in case!..Eh?..😉 Forget about any other exotic,esoteric or erotic answers to this type of attack.😉 :D… Unless you really like to fight on your back! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![couch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecccb3/32.png) [@couch](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/couch)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 1:33pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/15 "2002-10-01T13:33:24Z")
Chain Punching Before they get in to that range, trained in Wing Chun and the concept could be translated to all styles, they have to make it trough a flurry of punches. You could just keep hitting. They’re going in for a takedown, but you’re still punching their head. Don’t let them bridge that gap. Keep the distance where your style is comfortable to fight. ---
**Author:** ![jon](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/jon/32/206_2.png) [@jon](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/jon)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 1:57pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/16 "2002-10-01T13:57:29Z")
Merryprankster “I always get a kick out of this stuff. Do you really believe this? Let’s be a little more realistic. What you are describing MIGHT happen, but generally speaking, is unlikely. I’m sure that’s what you meant.” - Hi Merry 🙂 First of all im certainly no grappling expert, i only dabble so far as to get myself back in my prefered element. That said ive actualy had this variation performed on me. It works… Its certainly hard to actualy ‘rupture’ the spine but the whole point is the position your drive your opponent into. Its actualy very easy to dislodge the spine with the right amount of preasure and the right placement. However achiving both is not easy, i certainly dont say this is some supperiour method or even that its any more ‘lethal’ than a well executed regular sprawl. Still the fact does exist that there are some non sporting variations on the sprawl. “I agree with the above only so far as you are attending to your balance FIRST, then attacking with knees and elbows. Trying to unload knees and elbows on a rapidly closing opponent whose sole intention is to smother your strikes and shut the space down is not a simple matter.” - Very good point and one which i should have made a little more clear. Knees in particular ‘can’ actualy be akin to suicide if your being rushed. Still im a big believer in fighting fire with… water. If my opponent is attempting to grapple ill be attempting to knock his head off his sholders. If he is attempting to knock mine off then ill be trying to close the gap to prevent that from happening. “How many times have you witnessed footage of or were present for a fight, and watched a guy take a few shots then dive for the body to stop the strikes? It happens as often as backing out.” - True… however you would have to be a little shortsighted to say that its not one heck of a deterent. I dont regard knees and elbows as the be all and end all of takedown defence, just a very usefull method. “Lastly, why train something only an untrained opponent would do? A trained takedown type is going to keep closing the distance aggressively while trying to take you down because he knows that jamming your strikes is the best way to accomplish both his offensive and defensive objectives.” - Hmmm kinda odd point. I do see where you are comming from but to be honest im not THAT worried about being attacked by Royce Gracie. I only really see take down defences and grappling as way to get myself back where i can actualy do my damage. For me to be constantly worried about what a ‘good’ grappler would do would involve a massive change in focuss. Sort of akin to saying that lead japs are no longer any use becouse a ‘good’ aikido exponent can simply snap your wrist. I do see your point but as i say im more worried about what the average opponent will do than i am about professional mma fighter. Still i do see the logic behind doing things properly, however again grappling is not MY personal focuss. chingei “oh, of course it will.” - Pardon me, i keep forgetting all the experts here who are only too happy to inform me of what will and wont work. Now why not try and post how you would go about adapting your unbeatble no nonsence grappling to a street fight against two armed attackers and i can sit here and pick faults in your logic? Honestly i actualy LIKE when people disagree but PLEASE at least give me the respect of actualy stating WHY you disagree. At least Merry had the guts to lay his ideas on the line up for public critisim. As it stands your being a hypocrite, im a fool becouse i havent provided a reasonable explanation why my technique WOULD work. You are being a hypocrite by disagreeing without being able to provide a valid responce why you think it wouldnt. Can your spine handle the pressure of being compressed into the floor by a skilled practioner who is dropping there entire bodywieght on you in a position which it clearly cant handle? Obviously you must be doing something im not becouse my spine is only bone. Titatinium alloy i hear is not comming in till next season. ---
**Author:** ![Nichiren](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/nichiren/32/187_2.png) [@Nichiren](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Nichiren)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 2:18pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/17 "2002-10-01T14:18:36Z")
Dang, I liked the old guys techniques… Look at the throw. I think someone knows some chui Chiao? (or Judo etc.). I also think the takedown counter was a tasty little sucker, he hocked the leading leg with his foot and wrestled him down that way. I wouldn’t like him to try it on a heavier guy though. One thing I found curious was that the comments during this film went “taisabaki”. That means something like “technique to move ones feet” in japanese??? Was he japanese??? /Cheers ---
**Author:** ![Chang\_Style\_Novice](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/chang_style_novice/32/110_2.png) [@Chang\_Style\_Novice](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Chang_Style_Novice)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 3:14pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/18 "2002-10-01T15:14:48Z")
Anybody better at shuai chiao than I am care to explain “Downward Pulling” in some detail? It’s been mentioned as an effective defence against the wrestling shoot by some very knowledgable folks on the SC list. Paul? Monkeyslap? Neptune? ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Dragon](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/royal_dragon/32/49_2.png) [@Royal\_Dragon](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Royal_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 3:14pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/19 "2002-10-01T15:14:48Z")
“Its certainly hard to actualy ‘rupture’ the spine” Reply] Really?? Then why are there so many people walking around with single or multiple herniated disks?? ---
**Author:** ![ShaolinTiger00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@ShaolinTiger00](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/ShaolinTiger00)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 3:26pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316/20 "2002-10-01T15:26:33Z")
I am not advocating to learn wrestling, I will. Learn Wrestling. 🙂 [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/re-kung-fu-counters-against-takedowns/15316.md?page=2)