Repulsive Monkey
C’mon, man! That class you took was ****ty, obviously! You gonna diss KF based on the worst class you ever took??
-FJ
fajing . . . actually he specifically admitted he was forming his opinion on one class. it’s just all he has to base his opinion on right now. he also said it could have been the class, the style, or him that made him feel that way.
i know im not playing with a full deck of cards most of the time, but i got these crazy ideas from statements like . . .
[i] I do know that there are a variety of Yoga’s out there
. .. or at least the style I practiced in the class
. .. obviously becasue I’m biased to wards Qi Gong
i know that it was a) just one lesson; b) something new; c) something which wasn’t what we have been training in for many years
.. . this specific style of Yoga
This is all just one experience and will not try to insult Yoga, but it aims are probably the same as Qi Gong in many ways but I do not share the general idea on this thread that there are both so closely related, I feel there are some siginificant differences. [/i]
then again maybe fajing was being sarcastic and im just to stupid to catch it.
Wierd
Hmm, no I wasn’t being sarcastic. I appear to be suffering from temporary blindness probably from sitting at a computer all day. Lately I haven’t even had the patience to complete read through posts or threads, I type in spurts and I am putting my foot in my mouth lots these days. Chalk it up to stress or distraction. My mind feels like BWauhwauhwauhwauh like I’m a zombie or something. Actually our client hasn’t been providing much work lately and everyone around here is acting like a zombie.
Sh1t
-FJ
Here’s an attempt at an on-topic response: One major difference between Yoga and QiGong is that in yoga you don’t touch your tongue to the roof of your mouth, so they don’t work as much at circulating energy in an orbit, rather the emphasis on drawing energy to specific points.
-FJ
HHmm
Thanks Gunned… yup Fa-Jing I make no bones about the fact that I am relatively uninformed about the the area of Yoga. There is another majot difference (however maybe someone here can curb this generalisation im about to make???) in the class I took, which apparently was taught to us by a qualified instructor, we were told to pluck up the chest and close the back. In Taiji and Qi Gong, it is a major principle due to the meridian pathways of the Ren and Du Mei that one must pluck up the back and hollow the chest area. This particular when asked to do it in the class caused me to generate heat in the chest area and I stopped doing in the class, because it felt unhealthy to do so.
Sam Wiley, I know you mentioned about the discipline termed Taoist Yoga in relation to this thread, but howeverif my sources are correct, then this term used by people like Lu K’uan Yu, refers completely to Taoist Achemical practices only! It uses the word Yoga I believe not in the literal sense of the Indian connection/practice.
Qigong and Yoga
Does anyone here knowledge enough in both arts to comment on the difference between Yoga and Qigon?
both terms encompass a large area of understanding. Yoga can mean many things that qi-gong does not.
Perhaps you want to elaborate a little more ?
Geez…could you be a little more specific? 
IN GENERAL: Yoga is a discipline of awareness, like meditation. It doesn’t generally contain things like, say… Iron Crotch.
Like all generalizations, this one is wrong too.
Originally posted by prana
[B]both terms encompass a large area of understanding. Yoga can mean many things that qi-gong does not.
Perhaps you want to elaborate a little more ? [/B]
O.K. What kind of things yoga can mean are not meant in qigong?
If you don’t mind me responding as well…
“Yoga” is like saying “kung fu”: its a lot of different angles that point towards one thing.
In my, admittedly beginner’s, opinion- the essence of yoga can be seen when you see a baby find its feet for the first time… just joyful, exploring, etc. The POV they seem to want is that innocent and fearless approach to the world, the oceanic swim of things. That can be gotten thru meditation, chanting, asanas, activation of kundalini, etc. What I mean is, take into account that this is a final goal when you weigh differences.
Qiqong is involved in certain aspects of that over others and adds its own, IMHO. For me, I take it as ‘transformation’ in a bodily sense- developing the body/mind connection, promoting flow of chi, etc. There is decidedly less involvement in certain POVs. When there is, its focus tends to be that seen in Taoism or Buddhism.. a kind of celestial awareness and a developed system of correspondences.
In the end, both tend to promote a union of subject/object…
…And now, to defer to prana… he’s a good one for this. 
[SIZE=1]Forgot- neither yoga nor qiqong necessarily involve these POVs.. both can be external.[/SIZE]
o.k. I know correct translation of yoga is kung/gong hence it simply means work or exercise. So Qigong is expercise of ki/energy. So what type of training/exercise/work yoga is aiming at?
I still dont really understand the question, but I will just assume you are talking about similar exercises in yoga that are also performed in qi-gong.
It is really quite similar, to be honest, they may have different aims and uses, but they use the same vehicle of prana to achieve it. I cant speak for the literally thousands of yoga forms out there, but if there I might just sum it up by saying
The union between body and mind is usually the goal, and it usually begins with the breath.
I dont mean to open a can of worms, but qi-gong is just a yoga form that was brought to China, perhaps via Mangolia or olden day India. Whatever the matter, its use in martial arts is a huge step forward for martial artists.
i would agree with prana’s explanation both are methods to enhance prana or chi (which are essentially the same thing) through the body/mind/energy connection.
and i love both of em!!
Wudang/Shaolin, Qigong/Yoga
O.K. let me be more specific.
Here is a quote from Zheng Man Qing.
“Moreover, taichi stresses sinking your chi to the tantien extrapolated from Lao Tzu’s concept of concentrating your chi to become soft and young. The Taoist phrase, “The waterwheel spins backward,” depicts the flow of chi as it travels up your spinal Tu Meridian, passing first through your wei-lu then the Jade Pillow, and on up to your ni-wan point. This process is called “Opening the Three Gates” and is explained in the Taichi Classics: “When your wei-lu is centered and straight your spirit can rise to your headtop.” Seminal energy is worked until it transmutes into spirit - which probably proceeds from within the bones. Conversely, Bodhidharma’s arts as explained in his “Sinew Changing” and “Marrow Cleansing” classics do develop chi, but the chi is allowed to proceed along its natural course up your frontal Jen Meridian to your face. The chi hardens because it follows your sinews and vessels without changing into spirit - attributes of an external system”
Now, my taijiquan instructor do Iron Shirt Neigon. When I hit him, his body was like baloon. On the other hand, for what I can see, hard/external style Neigon seems to turn your body into steel.
Moreover, my experience of yoga is that thought it has as much internal aspect as Qigong, it is a hard arts where one must get the structure right then relax internally.
So would this contrast between Shaolin and Wudang kung fu apply to Yoga and Qigong.
Plus, the above quote make no sense to me at all. Can anyone explain to me what the difference between hard and soft chi.
Re: Wudang/Shaolin, Qigong/Yoga
Let me try my best to explain this, although some things you are saying are very specific to tai-ji training and I do not necessarily understand the translation is…
Originally posted by Vapour
[B]O.K. let me be more specific.
Here is a quote from Zheng Man Qing.
“Moreover, taichi stresses sinking your chi to the tantien extrapolated from Lao Tzu’s concept of concentrating your chi to become soft and young. The Taoist phrase, “The waterwheel spins backward,” depicts the flow of chi as it travels up your spinal Tu Meridian, passing first through your wei-lu then the Jade Pillow, and on up to your ni-wan point. This process is called “Opening the Three Gates” and is explained in the Taichi Classics: “When your wei-lu is centered and straight your spirit can rise to your headtop.” Seminal energy is worked until it transmutes into spirit - which probably proceeds from within the bones. Conversely, Bodhidharma’s arts as explained in his “Sinew Changing” and “Marrow Cleansing” classics do develop chi, but the chi is allowed to proceed along its natural course up your frontal Jen Meridian to your face. The chi hardens because it follows your sinews and vessels without changing into spirit - attributes of an external system”
I think the class of yoga you are speaking of has much to do with forms of breath manipulation. Essentially, if your mind is free from duality, the mind will naturally enter into the center channel and up into the head. This is the process of birth and the process of death. In fact, this subtle energy passage is contnuously happening, and everyday in the process cycle of sleep and awake.
Here in, many “yogas” (I refer to the specific yogas such as anu) either manipulate the mind directly to affect non-duality or directly affect the breathe with the knowledge that the single pointed mind is the guidance of prana. I think you can imagine what I am saying, the relationship between the duality of the mind and the path of qi is undifferential in the unenlightened being.
Now, my taijiquan instructor do Iron Shirt Neigon. When I hit him, his body was like baloon. On the other hand, for what I can see, hard/external style Neigon seems to turn your body into steel.
I am not too versed on the concept of hard/soft qi-gong, but there are plenty of practitioners here that do, such as dezhen and Repulsive Monkey and more…
Moreover, my experience of yoga is that thought it has as much internal aspect as Qigong, it is a hard arts where one must get the structure right then relax internally.
So would this contrast between Shaolin and Wudang kung fu apply to Yoga and Qigong.
Shaolin religious Qi-Gong practise emphasises the non-duality of mind. Although it is not much followed these days, the students go through a stage of preliminary practise of visualising or paying homage to the Buddha. Students who have mastered this non-duality will then enter into the generation stage yogas and then taught to channel energy into their dan-tien with their though as the vehicle.
Nowadays, practitioners take up the practise of breath manipulation and the fundamental practise is learning the breathe into the dan-tien.
There is a key hidden difference in the two that I would rather not talk about, but it is, in all cases, very very similar.
Plus, the above quote make no sense to me at all. Can anyone explain to me what the difference between hard and soft chi. [/B]
In summary, really, a lot of the differences in yogas comes to a final goal, and that goal is to achieve the ability to willingly move their energy into the central channels, and evoke the mother and father elements and achieve ultimate wisdom of the indestructable truth about all life forms, what Buddhist call the Buddha Nature or sometimes interpreted by the word Bodhicitta (which is also used to describe the meditation of selflessness and loving kindness). Another explanation you might choose to use is that of sombogakhaya and dharmakaya.
???
Now you lost me. Zheng Man Qing was a famous Traditional Chinese Medicine doctor and from what I know, he is not talking about mind but specific issue of Chinese physiology from qi perspective.
Zheng Man Qing’s quote indicate that there is a specifict difference in a way chi/ki is channlelled in Shaolin Kung Fu and Wudang Kung Fu. This difference seems to manifest into different quality of ki/chi, which seems to manifest into different nature of Neigon. And when I say difference in manifestation, this seems to specifically refer to physical manifestation as opposed to meditative/mind manifestation.
I have seem my instructor’s Neigon being very soft which seems to have distinctively differet quality from Shaolin style Neigon. Can anyone explain the mechanism in which such differnce occurs. It will help if anyone have done both soft and hard Iron Shirts Neigong.
Second question is whether this difference in channeling of chi could be similarly described as an principle difference between Qigong and Yoga. As we know, Qigon is so much softer than Yoga just like tajiquan is so much softer than Shaolin Kung fu. In such case, it will not be correct to state that Qigong is Chinese version of Yoga.
An article that MAY help- no guarantees, of course.
he is not talking about mind but specific issue of Chinese physiology from qi perspective
Mind/body is a duality, so the conception of how you’re reading it may be a little off- maybe thats the sticking point. Tho I confess that the excerpt is rather mystifying to me, also…
from the little i have experienced “hard” qigong is also a misleading term - as there are many types, some more “external” and concerned with conditioning mainly, others more “internal” dealing with issuing energy and power, specifically using breathing and forms of meditaiton to balance the physical exercises/training.
i have seen some people who do all the things like hitting their palm or fist on various things, bamboo against themselves etc. yet there doesnt seem to be any “breath” training? infact, it just seems like body conditioning.
The skill i train is different to this, and although we use objects to hit ourselves mainly as far as i have experienced, its to help us understand how to issue power to protect or use offensively. specifically using breathing and meditation techniques as well.
We say hard qigong develops the “bones, tendons and skin”, but it has to be in that order or else you are hollow. It is also a metaphor from inside to outside. If you just train conditioning and dont have a clear body from blockages and have a developed potential, eventually u will be damaged. Thats why inside is most important.
yes my body has got a little denser, but my body is still soft and supple. infact one exercise we always do when training is specifically to loosen off the whole body after training and to relax.
Also meditation and relaxation is a very important part. So “soft” and “hard” are not mutually exclusive (at least in my skill).
i also train in soft qigong every day. I agree the attitude and way of doing things is different, because Neigong/hard qigong has an obvious martial aspect, soft qigong does not, though it is there in some skills too.
just my random thoughts,
how this relates to yoga i have no idea, prana just mentioned my name coz i train both
dawood
Does anyone know good Yoga Forum? I will post the same question there and post link to that thread here.
yoga vs qigong/neigong
what is the difference in internal development between these two?