# Pong Lai stance **URL:** \ **Category:** Northern Praying Mantis\ **Created:** [January 31, 2005, 6:40am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995 "2005-01-31T06:40:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Oso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/oso/32/63_2.png) [@Oso](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Oso)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/21 "2005-02-12T01:08:16Z")
> Originally posted by Three Harmonies > I agree with the motion comment. I hope none of you would start out a fight in a stance such as Jade Ring, or Xiao Deng Shan Bu, or Cold Rooster, or Deng Shan Bu…etc. In our system, Xiao Deng Shan Bu is used to take someone down over your knee (essetnially a fancy trip). I would not be caught dead in that stance unless I was in contact with my opponent some way or another. > Just my cents…if I have any 😉 > Jake:D Jake: No. Not in it’s extreme low position but a higher position but with the weight more evenly distributed. As I said, higher up, this looks pretty much like a western boxers posture. So, what does everyone use as a neutral position? ---
**Author:** ![Judge\_Pen](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/judge_pen/32/409_2.png) [@Judge\_Pen](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Judge_Pen)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/22 "2005-02-14T14:36:58Z")
> Originally posted by Oso > > So, what does everyone use as a neutral position? I suppose the best way to describe my neutral stance is a high San Ti. ---
**Author:** ![Oso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/oso/32/63_2.png) [@Oso](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Oso)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/23 "2005-02-14T15:35:53Z")
so, my train of thought on this is if the posture with which one fights from is not in the ba shi or in the forms anywhere…is it any wonder we are often criticised for not looking like our style? if we train the ba shi and train our forms but fight using another type of posture as a neutral starting point for combat then how do we ‘look’ like mantis fighters? just some thoughts… ---
**Author:** ![Three\_Harmonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@Three\_Harmonies](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Three_Harmonies)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/24 "2005-02-14T17:15:38Z")
All too often we all get caught up in “looking” like our style. Let’s face it…we are little bugs in that case! Not too flattering if you know what I mean. Instead of analyzing how one “looks” try to envision(?) the flavor or spirit of the animal if you will. Let me use a couple of analogies from Xing Yi, since they have Twelve (some ten) animals. When I do the monkey form (Hou Xing) it is not my intent to act nor look like a monkey, but rather fight with it’s spirit. What I mean by that is monkeys are naturally cautious, deceptive, and tenacios. I want to encapture that same type of charachter. When one fights you and you utilize the monkey theory, you first appear timid and afraid, but this is nothing more than a deception to make your opponent over confident and to attack with more vigor. Once that happens the monkey explodes into action working very quick and aggresive. (I wish I was more web savy and I would post a vid of what I mean! ☹ ) So when one thinks about utilizing Mantis type energy or spirit, think about these pointers: -Mantids are naturally small, so they cannot meet force on force. Utilize absorbing, parrying, etc. - Mantids are also very agile and quciker than \*\*\*\*! Ties into above. - Mantids pull their prey in close to finish them off (Because of the structure of their arms they have more leverage in close). If I need to explain how this ties into anyones Mantis training, well… we need to talk! 😉 I understand where you are coming from Oso, I was their once myself. But I think if you continue to analyze and question like you do, you will find the answers. Then down the road when your students ask, you will smile and remember back when you were concerned about such things. 😃 I cannot recall and fight (street or otherwise) where someone lined up in a “traditonal stance” and won! There was a clip on Emptyflower a week or two back, with a Karate school fighting a Drunken Boxing school. The Drunks (He He 😛 ) tried to do there swaying int he breeze, look like I am about to fall over, routine. Meanwhile the Karate guys literally kicked the sh!t out of their heads (because their guard was lowered). The few times (and I mean few) that the Drunks hit the Karate players they bounced off, simply because they did not have a firm stance. They were trying to do the goofy drunked style stepping. It was rather embarassing to be honest. I would have to drink after than performance! 😉 My point is… the karate players were in a solid “boxing” stance, and it proved valuable both defensively and offensively! It still looked like Karate though. For what it is worth. Cheers Jake 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Oso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/oso/32/63_2.png) [@Oso](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Oso)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/25 "2005-02-14T18:41:26Z")
I’m not talking about looking like a bug. I totally understand about capturing the spirit of the style’s metaphorical animal. My first 7 years of training was hung gar and it was all about that…and I get the spirit of the mantis pretty well though I don’t always feel I can get my body to work it. I’m talking about fighting with the tools w/ train with. {huh, just kinda realized I jumped threads a bit with my last post. It really belongs on my thread questioning posture/stance usage} ---
**Author:** ![Three\_Harmonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@Three\_Harmonies](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Three_Harmonies)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/26 "2005-02-14T19:24:43Z")
Okay. In that case the majority of the stances are used as takedowns (Kao Die). Fancy trips. I too have had trouble getting Yu Huan Bu (or Qi Xing Bu depending on terminology) too work well. I usually use Xiao Deng Shan Bu (or some variant thereof) when I take folks down. Jake 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Oso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/oso/32/63_2.png) [@Oso](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Oso)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/27 "2005-02-14T20:30:14Z")
hokay…so, what you are saying is that there isn’t this ‘neutral’ stance that is trained in traditional mantis? It just seems to me that in a fighting context there should be a zero place that everything else flows from. you are not always attacking or always defending. sometimes you are trying to figure out wtf to do with this guy who seems like he’s about to whip your azz. my teacher in hung gar had a basic stance he called a ‘t’ stance that he taught us to fight from and we worked application and transitions from this neutral stance to all the others. my last teacher (stylistically a mongrel) had a base stance that we worked from which was present in the forms and from which we also trained applications and transitions to other stances. I agree that the stances are used for throws, that’s been consistant througout my martial training. ---
**Author:** ![Three\_Harmonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@Three\_Harmonies](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Three_Harmonies)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/28 "2005-02-15T00:22:53Z")
Maybe I am not following you, but a “neatural” stance is what I consider a fighting stance, which is basically a boxing stance, or like Bung Bo stated, a modified San Ti from Xing Yi Cheers Jake 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Oso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/oso/32/63_2.png) [@Oso](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Oso)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 2:08am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/29 "2005-02-15T02:08:29Z")
right, we are talking about the same thing. But, why are we talking about our ‘neutral’ fighting posture as something from another style? And, niether xing yi or western boxing figure into the development of mantis. just trying to make sense of it all. 😛 thanks for the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Three\_Harmonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@Three\_Harmonies](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Three_Harmonies)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 5:03am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/30 "2005-02-15T05:03:29Z")
Okay Oso, i’m really trying here…so hang tight! You know you are my favorite crazy white dude from Asheville right?? 😉 I am trying to see through the glasses you have on, but am having a tough time. The way I understand fighting (in general), is that one should stand ina posture as follows: Chin tucked, shoulders slightly forward but not slouching, one hand/foot ahead of the other, elbows hanging down and tight to the body, hands clenched in a loose fist held up and in front of the body/face, knees slightly bent with a springy-ness too them, weight pretty evenly distributed sometimes shifting back and forth a bit, feet firm and solid on the ground but with an alertness to them ready to spring into action. etc. Now I call this a fighting stance. THis is what I fight out of regardless of style. I used the boxing stance and xing yi’s san ti only as examples. Nomenclature means little to me, so you call, whatever fits the above bill, it whatever you want. For me utilizing the specific stances of Mantis or Xing Yi, is when I execute a technique of some sorts, not when I am squaring off. Does this make better sense? Is there such thing as worse sense? Am I rambling on and on and on and on… Hope this helps. This much thinking makes my brain hurt ya’ big Oso! Jake 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mantisben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c77e96/32.png) [@mantisben](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/mantisben)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 8:18am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/31 "2005-02-15T08:18:57Z")
Neutral/Fighting Stance I’ll assume by “Stance” in the case of Neutral Stance and/or Fighting Stance we mean “Pre-Fighting Posture”, since the word “Stance”, to me, kind of defines what is happening from the waist down, where as posture would define what is happening from the waist down, and from the waist up. Anyway, I think the best Pre-Fighting posture would be the one that allows you to execute the offensive and defensive techniques for your fighting style most effectively. For example, a Wing Chun pre-fighting posture may involve holding the hands along the center-line, since this would be most ideal for executing the Wing Chun techniques of offense and defense. On the other hand, Choy Lee Fut fighters might not see the Wing Chun posture as most effective for executing their circular strikes. Wrestlers have their own pre-fighting posture which, I’m guessing, looks nothing like what Wing Chun or Choy Lee Fut fighters use. ---
**Author:** ![Oso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/oso/32/63_2.png) [@Oso](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Oso)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/32 "2005-02-15T13:39:01Z")
first, understand I’m not debating that what you are describing isn’t a good posture. it is. it’s basically what I do…although sometimes I flip out and use a rediculously low stance but usually when I’m tired and have retreated to a tactic of waiting for full commitment on my opponents part and generally take a hit in the process of crushing my opponent with some crazy grizzly ninja shiat. 😉 second, my points have been about taking what i’ve always used as a pre fighting posture and trying to find an analog within the new mantis stuff I’m learning. In both of my previous long term training experiences, there was a posture taught in the basic training as the pre fighting posture and, in the case of the second teacher, it was in every form we did. So far what I’ve seen from mantis I would actually say that the ‘catches cicada’ posture might be thought of as the PFC but i really hate trying to fight from there. But, every set I do, with the exception of your BYTT, starts from there. anyway, just exploring. ---
**Author:** ![N11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@N11](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/N11)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/33 "2005-02-15T14:36:26Z")
> Originally posted by Three Harmonies > Chin tucked, shoulders slightly forward but not slouching, one hand/foot ahead of the other, elbows hanging down and tight to the body, hands clenched in a loose fist held up and in front of the body/face, knees slightly bent with a springy-ness too them, weight pretty evenly distributed sometimes shifting back and forth a bit, feet firm and solid on the ground but with an alertness to them ready to spring into action. etc. > That is what I use for the most part. I learned it as monkey stance. N. ---
**Author:** ![N11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@N11](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/N11)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/34 "2005-02-15T14:47:14Z")
> Originally posted by Oso > So far what I’ve seen from mantis I would actually say that the ‘catches cicada’ posture might be thought of as the PFC but i really hate trying to fight from there. But, every set I do, with the exception of your BYTT, starts from there. > How about this… pre fighting posture can be feet together, hands down at sides(if you’re wanting to look at the forms). My teacher used to have us practice standing flat footed with our arms crossed and the other person attacking. N. ---
**Author:** ![Oso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/oso/32/63_2.png) [@Oso](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Oso)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/35 "2005-02-15T15:18:45Z")
> That is what I use for the most part. I learned it as monkey stance. great, that’s what I’m talking about. Is it part of your normal, basic posture set or something else taught seperately or later? > How about this… pre fighting posture can be feet together, hands down at sides(if you’re wanting to look at the forms). My teacher used to have us practice standing flat footed with our arms crossed and the other person attacking. ok, the first part of that is just kinda silly. I know you guys think I’m just being stubborn but I’m not. I’m also not talking about looking like the forms but utilizing what the forms and other specific training is supposed to be teaching us. The second part is right on and is how I have trained and teach self defense applications. The philosophy being that you don’t want to especially give away that you know ‘kung fu’ by immediately dropping into a stance. Also, apologies to Tianan as it seems this thread has been totally hijacked…I tried to take the question to another thread. Hopefully it’s OT enough to stay though I wish more people would chime in. ---
**Author:** ![Hua\_Lin\_Laoshi](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/hua_lin_laoshi/32/64_2.png) [@Hua\_Lin\_Laoshi](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Hua_Lin_Laoshi)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/36 "2005-02-15T16:13:21Z")
You sound like I feel sometimes. Either not quite getting the point across or others not quite understanding your mindset. If I understand correctly it is an interesting observation. You’re looking for a zero-point or postureless posture that all others flow from. I think we all fight like this yet nowhere is it found in any of the forms. Maybe in the old days they actually fought from the basic stances and we’ve just progressed since then. Or maybe they never stood waiting and went right into attacks until it was over. Real fights don’t have time for waiting, especially if it’s life or death. My neutral stance is about what has been described although if I’m feeling good and confident I’ll set myself in a cat or wide horse just to taunt or pysch out my opponent. I also switch between motionless and continous movement to see which causes the most trouble for my opponent. Each opponent is different and you have to find out what gives you the advantage against that particular fighter. I really don’t believe fighting only one way. ---
**Author:** ![N11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@N11](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/N11)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/37 "2005-02-15T17:20:17Z")
> Originally posted by Oso > great, that’s what I’m talking about. Is it part of your normal, basic posture set or something else taught seperately or later? > We do this from the start as part of training how to stand and step. > Originally posted by Oso > ok, the first part of that is just kinda silly. I know you guys think I’m just being stubborn but I’m not. > Maybe only just slightly silly. But formwise, in that starting position, we are supposed to be balanced, alert, relaxed, and ready move. My teacher also had us practice applications from that starting position as well. N. ---
**Author:** ![Oso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/oso/32/63_2.png) [@Oso](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Oso)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/38 "2005-02-15T18:04:41Z")
> If I understand correctly it is an interesting observation. You’re looking for a zero-point or postureless posture that all others flow from. correct but more specifically, something identifiable as ‘mantis’. not necessarily buglike but something that is in the curriculum and/or forms. like -N-'s stance being taught to him as a monkey stance. that was exactly what I was looking for. > Or maybe they never stood waiting and went right into attacks until it was over. maybe not. but in a fight or sports match w/ an evenly matched opponent there will be times when you are just circling or moving while you figure out a stratagem or a way out of the situation because you are afraid you are about to get your ass handed to you. I agree with the rest of the comments in your post. -N- > We do this from the start as part of training how to stand and step. My first teacher did this with us and the neutral stance was part of our initial stepping method training but not in later forms. The posture from my second teacher was used in initial training but was also present in the sets. another teacher that I did not study very much with utilized the xing yi posture everyone is referring to (because part of the system was xing yi) but had an emphasis on a ‘natural posture’ that actually had some specific things you were supposed to do. the shorinji kempo folks I’m friends with have a ‘kempo fighting stance’ that is their base and I’m pretty sure it’s present in their sets as well. just some examples from my personal experience and the base of my inquiry. > Maybe only just slightly silly. But formwise, in that starting position, we are supposed to be balanced, alert, relaxed, and ready move. right, gotcha. we used to practice from a variety of ‘inobvious stances’: leaning against a wall, one foot on a chair, sitting. ---
**Author:** ![N11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@N11](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/N11)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/39 "2005-02-15T18:57:51Z")
> Originally posted by Oso > My first teacher did this with us and the neutral stance was part of our initial stepping method training but not in later forms. > > We train this neutral stance more than any other. It shows up in our version of Chop Chui. At the first turn around we go to the koi ma sam chui sequence. We use 3 fast monkey steps rather than bow and arrow stance here. This is considered the advanced way to do the sequence. N. ---
**Author:** ![Oso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/oso/32/63_2.png) [@Oso](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Oso)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995/40 "2005-02-15T20:33:40Z")
I don’t know chop chui but I get the gist of using the monkey stepping instead of the hill climbing. thanks. [Previous page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/pong-lai-stance/30995.md?page=3)