For demonstrative purposes, Sifu Totten enjoys really throwing himself into the techniques. Mostly throwing his students across the room, etc.
Today I was sparring with a classmate who wasn’t quite getting the technique he just showed us. Sooooo me being as tall and as big as Sifu, he decides to use me as the training dummy.
Four palm heel strikes to the back of the neck and a takedown later, I wasn’t able to turn my head sideways… Thank god one of my Si-Jengs is a massage therapist, or I wouldn’t have made it home.
The joke around my kwoon is that Sifu doesn’t hit you unless he likes you. He must LOVE my ass, then. Does your instructor clock you a bit too hard sometimes?
Oh hells yeah. I remember in one class, my sensei decides to use me for a training dummy for an armlock takedown. He proceeded to administer the armlock, throw me to the ground, spin me around a bit on the ground for the back of my head to meet with his kneecap. I couldn’t keep my balance for 10 seconds after I finally was able to get up. It was very annoying.
Sorry guys, but if your instructors can’t manage to maintain sufficient control of themselves and their techniques to teach them to you, convince you that they really do work, and do so in a manner wherein your physical injury is extremely minimal, it seems they have some more practicing to do…
The only time I get “rough” with a student is when they decide they are going to “show me,” and they become combative… Then I allow them to see that the technique works, but still in a controlled fashion.
Beating someone down with good technique displays skill. Controlling someone with good technique and minimal injury shows greater skill…
I’ve had the odd sore wrist or elbow as a result of being demonstated on. However, nothing remotely serious. Our teacher routinely turfs us but catches our arm or hand to keep us from sprawling into a wall. I’ve not yet witnessed excessive force or lack of control on his part.
I haven’t been able to attend class in ages, but back when I did, I was consistently the biggest and most experienced guy in the kwoon (except for Shifu, who was smaller but much much more experienced.)
This combination made me the consistent candidate for demonstration of techniques for the relatively newbie. A particular favorite was the ol’ “Pluck the needle from the sea” wristlock. It really makes an impression on folks when I drop to the floor and make funny little pain noises due to such a gentle seeming manuever.
These days, I spend more time as the teacher than as the student, but I don’t feel a need in most circumstances to prove by injury that my stuff can work. I’ve taken plenty of punishment from instructors in my past, some of which I actually deserved. However, having grown up in martial arts culture, I’ve noticed that most of the time, teachers who put REAL smack on their students are doing so out of basic insecurity or “teenie weenie” syndrome. When challenged by the uninitiate ignoramus, there are still teachers out there who feel threatened by the idea that someone might not believe they really are a total badass, and are willing to needlessly inflict pain on others rather than face up to their fears.
There are occasions where controlled full-contact training has its place, but at least that allows the student the option of avoiding the punishment by correct action/fighting skill. Situations where the student just stands there and get the crap knocked out of them are unacceptable and reflect a p*ssy of a teacher, IMO.
"Sorry guys, but if your instructors can’t manage to maintain sufficient control of themselves and their techniques to teach them to you, convince you that they really do work, and do so in a manner wherein your physical injury is extremely minimal, it seems they have some more practicing to do… "
I disagree. It’s not a matter of control. I personally like to feel the techniques because I want to know what they feel like when applied properly. If sifu didn’t do it, I would have another student do it - personally I’d rather have sifu do it. also, you have to consider the fact that he may not know how much pain you can take. I can take more pain that just about everyone in my class, so it’s cool when sifu goes hard on me. IMO, there is nothing wrong with using the techs with some authority. I wouldn’t do it on beginning students, but on the more advanced definitely.
Ever been to any grappling classes? armbars, guillotines, etc. - they all hurt. For the first few classes, you WILL go home sore. You know what? It goes away. eventually, you are used to it, and the same moves don’t hurt as much - they stull hurt if applied full force of course, but you won’t have a sore neck every night after training.
I’m with Seven, I like to feel the technique:D. I’m usually the biggest if not one of the biggest guys in class, so sifu likes to show that the techniques work on the big guys, too. I’ve been dropped on my face, back, and arse, lifted off the ground with pushes and strikes, rolled like a tumbleweed, and twisted up like a pretzel. Sifu always did the moves with control, though, so I never suffered any permanent injuries, just a little pain.
Yeah, and you just brought up the biggest downfall to being the biggest guy in class - Everyone is convinced that if they can do their techs on me, then they can successfully do them on anyone. Consequently, I’m on everyone’s hit list as the man they want to be able to throw and the one they want to outspar. It keeps me on my toes though!
My first instructor used to have a motto, “a good boxer is stung frequently and hurt occasionally.”
I’d get winded regularly, by punches and kicks, even when he was just demoing to other students. He is really good at nerve point attacks and often enjoyed making people scream when he drilled his fingers in.
One of my classmates used to say he enjoyed inflicting pain and had to get his regular fix.
But he NEVER injured me, other than a few bruises or minor joint tweak. His sense of control was that good. I think that is the difference. It certainly made the transition to sparring with him and fellow students less traumatic, as I’d already been hit many times in practice.
Some pain is good. Injury is bad. That’s my $0.02.
Oh yeah, this guy kicked a challenger through a wall once. It was only a fibro (asbestos sheet) wall, but it’s still a good story.
~Most of the old generation Chinese instructors I know, (60 + years) have plenty of control and a lot less need to work harder than probably anyone on this forumn! They are also quite willing to demonstrate HARD hitting and kicking and seizing etc… They have caused lots of pain to their students. Get over it. If you cant handle the pain study dance or yoga or find some hippies to work out with. Some times you cannot actually get the full sense of a technique until it is actually applied to you with a reasonable amount of commitment. Additionally, a knowledgeable instructor should be able to fix any injuries he causes. In fact, in several organizations that I know of a person is required to learn bone setting, and other facets of TCM in great detail if they feel they should be instructing. In our organization even an assistant-instructor is required to have extensive knowledge of tuina and TCM.
Ive learnt under some quite physical teachers before, each has its own merit. But when it comes down to it. If you are worried about getting hit…well how can you take in all the info properly when you mind is bogged down with worry?
Any instructor who manages to hurt you has failed in his Duty of Care. Bruised forearms and STRAINED LIGAMENTS are nothing to be sneezed at. Injured parties should immediately file lawsuits and seek out the United Nations, the Center for Disease Control, Amanesty International and Congress for reparations. (See Goktimus vs. Sifu and Goktimus vs. Reality for the precedent setting judgements in this case)
Your case for an instructor’s failure re: Duty of Care is on much firmer ground if at any time you cry out during training: “Ouch! That hurts! Stop it!” and the training continues.
It also helps if you have a face like a dropped pie.
Sifu was never one to inflict pain. On the other hand Sensei had a teaching style that was to demonstrate a technique and stay on it until you said you had it. The next day he would ask you to demonstrate. If you couldn’t do it , he would demonstrate with enough force to really get your attention (and cry out). I don’t remember any third lessons on the same technique.
In aikido, it is a common concept that you must learn by falling (receiving throws). Therefore, you have to be tossed around inorder to learn. You get what you give, so if you rush in and try to smash sensei’s face, you should expect to be thrown hard. This is appropriate if you ukemi is up to speed, and no body should get hurt (maybe a bit dizzy).
Sometimes beginners want to really know if the techniques work, and will offer a bit to much resistance for their own good (I have done this). Sensei Imaizumi responds with a throw generated by that intense resistance, but tries his best to make the person fall safely (by cathing his head or lifting him a bit at the end etc).
So I think you can strike a balance between Duty of Care and giving people what they need and/or want. One might even go o far as to say aikido was developed around the concept of Duty of Care.
Thank god one of my Si-Jengs is a massage therapist, or I wouldn’t have made it home.
