# On Teaching- the first lesson **URL:** \ **Category:** Wing Chun\ **Created:** [December 1, 2004, 5:34pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/on-teaching-the-first-lesson/30134 "2004-12-01T17:34:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ultimatewingchun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Ultimatewingchun](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Ultimatewingchun)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/on-teaching-the-first-lesson/30134/21 "2004-12-03T18:45:42Z")
“In my first lesson from Patrick Chow, we stood in the SLT pigeon toe stance and just did the slow part of the Tan sau/Fook sau cycle over and over again for an hour straight. He said this represented 1/4 of the Wing Chun system. All the students except me were Chinese and so they accepted this and I followed along. In the first year only the first third of the form was covered along with single sticking hands, turning, stepping with the punch, double punching to develop power, Pak sau and Lap sau.” (YongChun) This kind of thing has no place in today’s world, imo. Total waste of the student’s time and money. ---
**Author:** ![old\_jong](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/user_avatar/forum.kungfumagazine.com/old_jong/32/86_2.png) [@old\_jong](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/old_jong)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/on-teaching-the-first-lesson/30134/22 "2004-12-03T19:31:53Z")
> Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun > [B]“In my first lesson from Patrick Chow, we stood in the SLT pigeon toe stance and just did the slow part of the Tan sau/Fook sau cycle over and over again for an hour straight. He said this represented 1/4 of the Wing Chun system. All the students except me were Chinese and so they accepted this and I followed along. In the first year only the first third of the form was covered along with single sticking hands, turning, stepping with the punch, double punching to develop power, Pak sau and Lap sau.” (YongChun) This kind of thing has no place in today’s world, imo. Total waste of the student’s time and money. [/B] IMO,students nowadays want (or need?) to be entertained or they will simply vanish away,as I said earlier.There were benefits with that slow “classical” approach. The foundations were built before the roof and everything was solid before going to the next item.But times change! We have to give them what they want and they want more and faster. This is why I ask my students to do some serious stance practice as homeworks.I used to watch a film or hockey game while standing in YGKYM when I was beginning in Wing Chun \*(1),so I ask them to at least try to do something about it.Believe me,I can easily tell witch of my guys do it or not!..IMO,some of the most boring stuff about Wing Chun is most important. \*(1) It is not recommended to practice SLT while having the mind occupied at something else. (IMO) ---
**Author:** ![crimsonking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@crimsonking](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/crimsonking)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/on-teaching-the-first-lesson/30134/23 "2004-12-03T19:44:57Z")
Andrew, > Originally posted by AndrewS > that seems to be a useful approach to hook people in- give them some application and experience fast in order to give them context, so that they can understand the good stuff about Wing Chun. > It’s all about understanding wing chun and its relation to fighting. > Did you find yourself unlearning a lot of mechanics after that year or did your teacher actively guide you away from things that grossly contradicted what you were headed to (and if so, how)? > I didnt have to ‘unlearn’ anything specifically (other than a lifetime’s habits - but that’s another topic). General principles of good body mechanics were introduced along with what i was discovering through the qigong. Later on yjkym, slt, shifting, stepping, dan-chi proper etc were introduced, and i had a very clear understanding that i wanted to progress through the traditional wing chun syllabus as thoroughly (read slowly) as possible. The thing i spent the most time on was the footwork. Victor, The only thing i would think unacceptable was the ‘I followed along’. I spent my second year like Ray’s first. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@AndrewS](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/AndrewS)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/on-teaching-the-first-lesson/30134/24 "2004-12-03T20:07:06Z")
A couple of notes on this: My argument with the ‘classical’ approach is that it lacks context for the student and has no empiric validation obviously inherent to it. Lots of people stand in stance for ages; few have a ‘root’ worth a d\*mn. ‘Root’ is an attribute well worth developing, but standing around hoping it will come is definitely a waste of time. Partner work with direct feedback and increasing pressure builds proper mechanics far faster and more consistantly than just standing. This is my experience. CK- what qi gong did you learn? Are you learning part of Michael Tse’s Yi Chuan/ Wing Chun curriculum? What do you mean by principles of good body mechanics? Ray- I think I fundamentally disagree with your approach. I hate giving the ‘sampler/survery/demo’ lesson to people fresh off the street. I find it wastes everyone’s time (like the class if there are other people there), puts you in a demeaning ‘show and tell’ position, and generally doesn’t work. My take is that active participation from moment one is the best approach, that way a prospective student can find out if they like doing the work- training. ---
**Author:** ![Ultimatewingchun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Ultimatewingchun](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/Ultimatewingchun)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/on-teaching-the-first-lesson/30134/25 "2004-12-03T20:41:33Z")
“I hate giving the ‘sampler/survery/demo’ lesson to people fresh off the street. I find it wastes everyone’s time (like the class if there are other people there), puts you in a demeaning ‘show and tell’ position, and generally doesn’t work. My take is that active participation from moment one is the best approach, that way a prospective student can find out if they like doing the work- training.” (AndrewS) I agree with this. As long as every class is covering something (and hopefully more than just 1 or 2 things) that resemble reality fighting scenarios…then someone watching can get something of a clear picture of what you’re offering. But if you’re just doing forms, footwork drills, punching/kicking into the air, some dan chi sao - or even some double arm chi sao… but without a “real-fight” context applied to any of it…so that a visitor can say to himself…‘okay - I see how that could work in a real fight situation’… then he’s left to try and make those connections to reality fighting WITHIN HIS OWN MIND…which is too much to ask. So in this manner you don’t have to try and change the class to the demo/sampler thing just because a visitor walked in to watch. He may not get the “complete overview” of the system the way I just described it (as opposed to the sampler/demo business)…but he won’t need one. He’s seen SOMETHING that got his attention. ---
**Author:** ![crimsonking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@crimsonking](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/crimsonking)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/on-teaching-the-first-lesson/30134/26 "2004-12-03T20:42:16Z")
Andrew, Standing is for much more than ‘developing root’, although this is the most obvious. You’re correct that ‘rooting’ mechanics can be developed effectively without standing, and correct that standing doesn’t necessarily guarantee anything (although this could be disputed because of its self-regulating nature), but, you can’t get really far in wing chun without standing. The qigong started with basic zhan zhuang and meditative movement awareness work meditiation from Feldenkrais. No, nothing to do with Michael Tse. Principles of good body mechanics - You know these already. I could give a simple example like ‘elbow low’. Or say, for starters look at what the ‘internal’ martial arts have in common, and many other martial artists and other athletes do naturally. Look at how people away from modern culture walk, how a good golfer swings. Ask an alexander or feldenkrais teacher. Look at how the human body is designed. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@AndrewS](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/AndrewS)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/on-teaching-the-first-lesson/30134/27 "2004-12-03T21:13:57Z")
CK, ‘Root’, ‘peng’, and Feldenkrais and Alexander technique are not the same thing. [Sigman!Sigman!Sigman!] \>:-\>\>\> The body mechanics of Wing Chun are not the same as those of the neijia, though we have some commonalities. I ain’t looking to MJ or Tyson to teach me Wing Chun, though I’ll take some inspiration from their rather inspired motion. Do the Guo Lao people do standing practice? 'Cos they have no Siu Nim Tao. What is the basis of your claim that you won’t get far in Wing Chun without standing practice? How much standing practice? What sort? Is zhang zhuan sufficient to feed the Character 2 stance? San ti? Or does only character 2 work? Or single leg? Victor, among the many advantages of doing something immediately usable every class- it does help draw the students in! Later, Andrew ---
**Author:** ![crimsonking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@crimsonking](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/crimsonking)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/on-teaching-the-first-lesson/30134/28 "2004-12-03T22:08:29Z")
AndrewS, I’m well aware that these arent the same thing - but like i said for the first year or so was pretty much just applications, so only basic improvements in mechanics, and their functional role in fighting. And yes, boxers who move well are not a bad place to look. I’m familiar with what Sigman had to say on the old neija list. I’ve always looked to a broad base for understanding and comparison - but wing chun specifics are important, if you’re doing wing chun. I’m no expert on Guo Lao - but you don’t need to have SLT to spend time on stance work, or a lot of time in stance. The basic standing was introducted to me as a health exercise. When the wing chun applications started to come together as a cohesive theory of wing chun I switched to yjkym. The purpose of the parallel foot standing was to get a basic level of development, and to see the benefits of a certain approach to practice, without the complications of the yjkym. In many ways the first year was also about my sifu testing us - did we have the correct balance between trust (the qigong) and always questioning him (the applications) - did we have the patience and fortitude for the qigong, and the right approach to the applications lessons (which got very physical). San Ti - never did that, but i have stood in all the various stances in wing chun. Single leg is important but different. ‘Drawing students in’, ‘hooking them’ - worrying terms in these days of commercially-oriented MA. I tend to discourage people from taking up wing chun - it’s most often not what people are looking for or need, and being sold to them results in it changing (some might say being watered-down) to suit. I’d rather send someone to a ‘self-defence’ class, boxing, judo or yoga any day of the week. Wing chun has a distinct set of advantages - but the conditions must be right. ---
**Author:** ![YongChun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/9fc348/32.png) [@YongChun](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/YongChun)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 11:18pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/on-teaching-the-first-lesson/30134/29 "2004-12-03T23:18:38Z")
> Originally posted by AndrewS > > Ray- I think I fundamentally disagree with your approach. I hate giving the ‘sampler/survery/demo’ lesson to people fresh off the street. I find it wastes everyone’s time (like the class if there are other people there), puts you in a demeaning ‘show and tell’ position, and generally doesn’t work. My take is that active participation from moment one is the best approach, that way a prospective student can find out if they like doing the work- training. I always invite the student to come for a one hour free private where I do this. Then the students can see exactly what he is getting into, with no pressure, no one watching. Everyone I teach signed up that way. Sometimes these are people from other martial arts and sometimes the student knows absolutely nothing. So I find it always works. It’s like a friendly hands on sale talk so they can see there is no BS. Then after that they can try a class. Once a large police officer with a lot of martial arts background was watching the class at a rec centre where we were doing forms, some drills and some Chi sau. I noticed he was about to go so I quickly went to the door and asked him if he had any questions. He said no thank you, that was interesting. So I said can I show you something? He said Ok. So I said suppose I throw this straight punch at you – I slowly throw a punch at him — then how would you respond? He does something and then I counter and ask him to continue and we carry on for a few minutes. Then I explain some pointers to help him do whatever he did better. Then I say what these students were doing was this and that. So then this person signed up and stayed for 4 years. I asked him later what he thought when he was watching. He said it looked like garbage and that it couldn’t be good for anything. During the 4 years he reported back all the time how he had used his Wing Chun on the job. He was working in the drug world. So I like to show people here is what I can do. It’s not that great but maybe better than what you have. So then they want to learn. If they are much better than me on the other hand, then they don’t waste their time with me and can just go elsewhere right away. I pretty well got all my students in that way except in some rec centre course that advertised and mentioned about Bruce Lee and a quick and economical way to learn self defense. In those classes I start off the same way as other have mentioned on this thread. Ray [Previous page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/on-teaching-the-first-lesson/30134.md?page=1)