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(Maybe I’m just stirring up trouble, but that is NOT my intention with this post)

 I just had a thought concerning the whole UFC, MMA vs. kungfu controversy. Royce Gracie, and the other Gracies are the best BJJ guys around. They are like the Yang family of BJJ. They pretty much represent grappling in the UFC. That's the grappling camp. Now, the kungfu guys we see in the UFC either do "karate kungfu" or san soo, neither of which are traditional kungfu. --The Royal family of grappling vs. mediocre san soo guys. hmmmmm.

 This is just an idea(impossible, 'cause they're dead, but...): What if we had, say Helio Gracie go against someone like Yin Fu or Yang Lu Chan. Or using a more probable example, have Royce go with some obscure master in china, or taiwan. Let's see him with bagua master Ma Chuan Xu, or whoever--you see my point. 
 My point is that I'm tired of seeing the masters of BJJ kick the **** out of san soo and "karate kungfu" guys, and then hear from the BJJ camp how their art is superior to kungfu. The fact is(and it's not their fault, really), that the UFC grappling guys wouldn't know traditional kungfu if it put them in a triangle choke.

Any thoughts on this?

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>>>grappling guys wouldn’t know traditional kungfu if it put them in a triangle choke.<<<

So, go show 'em.

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“The Royal family of grappling vs. mediocre san soo guys.”

Have the royal family of kungfu ever fought anybody but mediocre wrestlers?

I don’t think so.

Your arguement could go either way. Would most traditional kungfu guys know real grappling?
would Yang Lu Chan know real grappling if he saw it? the answer is probably not.

Could he deal with mediocre grapplers? in all probability yes. But lets face it, the royal family as you put it of either camp have never met up…

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I’m kind of sick of the “no true Kung Fu” mantra, alot of people here post. IF the top level grapplers have not met a true master of kung fu yet, don’t you think one would have stepped up by now–I mean just to dispel the notion that Kung Fu is a joke?

Either true masters don’t care or they are afraid they wouldn’t do very well…take your pick. The fact is, no one has shown MMA’s any different. So who is going to step up here? I don’t see anyone here rushing to enter any major MMA tournament.

The only people on this board who competes in MMA events are MMAs… does anyone else here use traditional styles to compete?

Put up or shut up…

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From what I’ve read there’s a 8 Step Mantis guy that won a couple alternate matches in UFC’s but this does not count? This thread comes up about once a month. Ohhh and b4 you ask apparently all he used was Mantis. But who really cares, its not like if I practice 8 Step and he won so that must make me good too like so many students think. Yang Lu Chan and Yin Fu spent extensive time in the north so its safe to say they ran into grapplers, every traditional CMA has grappling in it that I’m aware of. I think its justa question of time b4 we see this generation of CMA focus more on NHB then Sanshou, afterall how many MMA’s do we see being succesful in Sanshou and Kuoshu?

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How many traditionalists do we see being successful in San Shou?

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“How many traditionalists do we see being successful in San Shou?”
-OK I think our definitions of “traditionalists” are different, yours being more in line with LKFDMC’s. My view of traditional is sticking to the principles which the system was founded and hopefully each generation works to improve the system. From what I understand Lama was originally done without any forms and back in the old days basics in kung fu was stressed alot more. Nowadays maybe people don’t have the time to practice 5 hours a day like they might of 2 or 300 years ago. Systems change with the time or to what the students want especially when teachers make theyre living and need students enrolled, like it or not most students want to learn 20 different forms, maybe this is because of movies, who knows. Maybe kung fu will go back to less is more or maybe students will practice more…doesnt matter to me I’ll keep practicing.

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Fighting or playing?

When ya’ squab for the reals you ain’t got a clue as to what your opponent does or doesn’t know. This is analogous to what happened to the sorry sap-suckers who had to face Royce and GJJ in the first couple of UFCs. The reason Royce was so effective WAS because he was an excellent submission stylist in a proven martial science. At 6ft. and 170-175 pounds he should have never beaten that steroid freak Ken Shamrock. But he did, and quickly (nighty-night Kenny). You’re right in your assumption of the Gracie’s being master submission fighters, but I think it also said something about the state of “MAs” in the U.S.. Pretty and flashy, but pitiful and ineffective outside a traditional tourney. You’ll find that really efective Martial Science is neither pretty nor glamorous. Basic BJJ looks like basic Chinese,Okinawan, Indonesian or Filipino Bujutsu.

When I returned from my 7 year tour of the Philippines in 1988, I immediately wanted to resume training but couldn’t find a decent instructor of ANYTHING where I lived. I had to go to LA to learn some effective sport style called BJJ. About a year ago I found a school but it is 2 hrs. from me. Still I make time to train intensively, when I have the chance.

No matter if your a Yang-style TaiChi Master or a Shaolin Temple Monk, if you haven’t trained realistically you won’t fight that way. Even if you’re a 6’5", 240 lb. 333-time bare-knuckle karate or San Shou champ, a dude with barely above-average strength and size, who knows about throwin’ down like Royce will wax you 98% of the time. Especially if you underestimate him and his art, or don’t know the first thing about groundfighting or ne-waza.

Eventually, Olympic caliber, Bovine-sized human beings started to give the BJJ guys a run. Don Frye, a guy with a wrestling and decent striking background, was also successful. That’s 'cause he was well-rounded and usually in great shape. Since, the majority of grappling arts don’t teach for the submission or limb “control”, and deal with positioning instead, it took lots of muscle and “Cross-Training” to compensate for their lack of Martial Science. Where were guys like Silva and Sak in the beginning? Learning how to adapt to lethal BJJ.

If anything, I think the early UFCs showed that in order to cover all bases you got to be able to play all positions. When you’re playing those positions you gotta know how to execute a decisive move and finish. Hope, assumption and luck has a very small role in self-preservation.

As far as crosstraining is concerned, I can say that Royce and Rickson did BJJ and endurance training, and that’s it. GJJ has strikes, kicks and stand-up submissions, too, but many of the newskool cats prefer the “rolling” or competitive aspects of it. Really it’s not about how much you’ve learned, but the validity of what you know, and validity is a subjective term. PEACE…

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omegapoint
I agree with a lot of what you said, but your post about san shou didn’t seem that informed. A decent san shou guy should know how to handle your everyday double leg takedown. A decent san shou guy should know how to avoid getting thrown. Chances are a decent san shou guy’s gonna know a bit about avoiding getting taken down to the ground; no matter what style he’s facing. I know the point was that Royce isn’t gonna do your “everyday double leg” cuz he’s better than that. But he’s at least got a bit of a shot.

Throwing is the key to the ground. If they can’t take you down to the ground, then it’s not likely you’re gonna go there. That leaves stand up grappling, which anyone can find in any style of kung fu- heck just look at that Yang Jwing Ming Chin Na book. I ain’t sayin people who know stand up grappling/ chin na and have a good foundation in throws & avoiding throws are invincible- but they’ve at least got a pretty good shot.
.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

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omegapoint

What is ne-waza?

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Check it out

L.D.: Did any San Shou guys fight in those first UFCs that Royce was in? Have any San Shou guys proven their mettle in a major MMA event such as “Pride” and the like? San Shou is probably quite analogous to Shootfighting without the leg submissions. I have nothing against it, but the few fights I’ve seen on TV weren’t that impressive. I would think a good ShidoKan guy or Kyokushin practitioner would give them a run for their money, let alone a world-class submission stylist.

Mantis: Peep this link for an explanation of Judo Newaza.