no. It’s been done.. get off your horse and do a re-read.
Originally posted by KaiKhoon
You can waste your time doing 3000 crunches a day, or you can add weight and do 20 and as long as you bring yourself to muscle failure you will get the same results. Although doing 3000 probably takes several times longer, obviously.
That’s wrong. Toby, did you miss that one?
Weighted sit ups will tone you just as well if not better, in a much quicker time. If you’re looking for endurnace im not sure which is better, although obviously 3000 crunches sounds like the better way to go, how much do you actually know about the body and it’s muscle growth ?
Wrong again. I think you should be asking yourself how much do you actually know about the body and its (no apostrophe) muscle growth?
Originally posted by blooming lotus
no. It’s been done.. get off your horse and do a re-read.
What? Where has it been done?
Nope. Just cutting the new guy some slack for now. Plus, what with my “discussions” with Eyebrows and now Foo in full swing I don’t have time for reasonable arguments about the correct :D.
Why so much hostility ?
I know that in order for your muscles to grow the fastest, you have to push them to your absolute max, you seem to be saying that you cannot do that with weighted crunchs/sit-ups. I’m not a big genius on body growth, and although the last comment in my posts sounded arrogent, I meant how much does any of us shmoe’s know about the body’s muscle growth.
I have read several body building books, by mike mentzer and others, as well as articles from tom platz, and other famous weight trainers, and I was simply relaying what they all said. It’s quite obvious that they KNOW the best way to build ab muscle, and they do it with weighted crunch variations. Now don’t get all hostile on me, you can go tell some of the best body builder’s in the world that they are wrong.
I have done crunches and ab exercises for a few years, and only recently gained results with weighted crunches in the last 2 months.
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I forget who commented about something to do with boxing being better cardio than running, it all depends on what you do, how you do it, and what % of your maximum capacity you push yourself too. All I meant to point out was that doing crunches isn’t going to give you as good of a cardio workout as a jog that you do to your max.
Edit: The books that I’ve read also said that 90% of people that train don’t know how to trigger maximum muscle growth and often think that doing a million reps will be the best path. So I understand that you are disagreeing and set in your way. Once again just relaying information from professional body builder’s, throwing out an opinion, please no hostility.
OK, let’s break this down a bit.
Originally posted by KaiKhoon
Why so much hostility ?
Because this is the KFM forum! 
I know that in order for your muscles to grow the fastest, you have to push them to your absolute max,
There are two types of max - max reps and max load. They will each produce different results.
you seem to be saying that you cannot do that with weighted crunchs/sit-ups. I’m not a big genius on body growth, and although the last comment in my posts sounded arrogent, I meant how much does any of us shmoe’s know about the body’s muscle growth.
Well, some of us know quite a lot. Weighted crunches will help you use the muscle under max load. This is good for building strength and triggering hypertrophy, depending on how many reps and how much load you use.
I have read several body building books, by mike mentzer and others, as well as articles from tom platz, and other famous weight trainers, and I was simply relaying what they all said. It’s quite obvious that they KNOW the best way to build ab muscle, and they do it with weighted crunch variations. Now don’t get all hostile on me, you can go tell some of the best body builder’s in the world that they are wrong.
Well, they’re selling a book based on their image when it was probably a team effort of trainers and other people that formulated the programs. Not saying they’re useless, but caveat emptor.
I have done crunches and ab exercises for a few years, and only recently gained results with weighted crunches in the last 2 months.
What results have you got. I know what you would have got, but what have you noticed?
I forget who commented about something to do with boxing being better cardio than running,
That was blooming lotus. Ignore her, because she’s completely insane,
it all depends on what you do, how you do it, and what % of your maximum capacity you push yourself too. All I meant to point out was that doing crunches isn’t going to give you as good of a cardio workout as a jog that you do to your max.
You’re quite right here. Crunches are not a cardio workout, unless your name is Ironfist, when even blinking is a cardio workout.
Edit: The books that I’ve read also said that 90% of people that train don’t know how to trigger maximum muscle growth and often think that doing a million reps will be the best path. So I understand that you are disagreeing and set in your way. Once again just relaying information from professional body builder’s, throwing out an opinion, please no hostility.
You’re right. 90% of people have only partial knowledge, or virtually none. Also, 85% of all statistics are just made up on the spot.
Multiple reps will build muscular endurance. This won’t help with maximal strength gains or hypertrophy beyond a fairly low ceiling point.
Well, there’s your problem :). Lots of us here “dislike” bodybuilding as a method. Most of us here are either (a) low rep high resistance or (b) high rep low resistance. Not in the middle. I dunno that Iron had a problem with your 20 rep being good statement, but more with saying that 20 weighted reps == 3000 unweighted. The results won’t be the same. Here’s a timely analogy: 100m runners vs. 15,000m runners. Why don’t they have the same physique?
Great analogy.
There have been many or several discussions about the best "cardio " endurance exercise on these boards, and if I remember correctly, kick boxing was first and a normal boxing routine wasn’t far off that. The ab - doer simulates boxing but with light pulling resistance . While we’re at it, if you want to build hand strike speed, again because of the resistence you have, whilst when really hitting there’s none, it’s also not a bad method.
Ps: don’t worry about the terrible way some people talk here and don’t take it to heart if you can help it. I guess they just haven’t learnt to play nicely yet 
Originally posted by blooming lotus
Great analogy.
This new BL is no fun. Agreeing with me means I’ve got nothing to attack :D.
Originally posted by blooming lotus
There have been many or several discussions about the best "cardio " endurance exercise on these boards, and if I remember correctly, kick boxing was first and a normal boxing routine wasn’t far off that.
Pretty sure it’s running (or similar). Leg muscles being some of the largest in the body tax the system more than upper body work ever can. Anything that neglects legs won’t match leg-intensive exercise. Of course, boxing with dynamic footwork will be good too. But someone once posted that wing chun chain punches are the hardest. Probably rub :mad: :p. Even though it’s my art, I can’t quite agree. I’m not saying other things aren’t hard - hell I do rowing for my HIIT - but leg workouts are the go AFAIK.
Originally posted by blooming lotus
While we’re at it, if you want to build hand strike speed, again because of the resistence you have, whilst when really hitting there’s none, it’s also not a bad method.
What? Translation from blinglish please?
it’s not unsensical , you’re just not following that part of the conversation. Using the ab - doer for boxing simulation is what I was refering to.
Ps. I do agree with what you’re saying in part, that usually for a boxing routine, to max cardio you’d need to incorporate some dynamic footwork, but I have some running experience myself and using a resisted boxing routine from sitted static lower , is a competitve cardio boost and particularly benificial for core muscular endurance, a bigger group than your legs ( though don’t quote me because I’d have to check an antomy chart ) . Point is, it’s big enough to have ample whole - system impact. It does run like a hiit load, come static run swing and the cardio benifit should be obvious.
Originally posted by blooming lotus
it’s not unsensical …
Yeah, I wasn’t saying boxing wasn’t good. Just that legwork is gunna tax you more AFAIK. I can’t believe I’m sort of agreeing with you :eek:.
Well, they’re selling a book based on their image when it was probably a team effort of trainers and other people that formulated the programs. Not saying they’re useless, but caveat emptor.
They build their routine’s themselves, they don’t have trainers because most of them knew more than trainers, Mike Mentzer was one of the most knowledgable body builders ever. They sometimes had a skinny chinese kid that would help them do cheat reps after they hit muscle failure. Most often they have a group of buddies that they work out with (at Gold’s gym, which is loaded with Body builders) to encourage and push them to muscle failure and past.
Lots of us here “dislike” bodybuilding as a method.
If you want to tone up and look like your muscular there is no quicker more effective method..
If you honestly believe that doing 3000 crunches will get you that 6 pack you need faster than weighted crunches, and you must hit muscle failure, then I don’t know what to say to you.
What results have you got. I know what you would have got, but what have you noticed?
I’ve posted a picture in the “Progress” thread’s last post. that was a couple weeks ago, and about 1 and 1/2 months ago you couldn’t see any sort of ab definition. I’ve increased the weight and form of my sit-ups, you can now see the beginning lines of a 6 pack, which I’m sure would be more visible if i didn’t have that smoothing layer of fat due to my horrid diet that I wish I could change.
Visible abs comes from two things:
- Low enough boydfat to see the muscle
- Developed enough muscles to be see.
#2 is usually not a problem for people.
Originally posted by KaiKhoon
If you want to tone up and look like your muscular there is no quicker more effective method.
Please don’t say “tone” ;). Most people here are more about performance than look. I recall reading on a bodybuilding forum something like “I’d rather look like I can bench 600lb than look like a heavy weight class powerlifter and actually be able to bench 600lb”. Most people here are the opposite of that viewpoint. Performance first, look last.
Originally posted by KaiKhoon
If you honestly believe that doing 3000 crunches will get you that 6 pack you need faster than weighted crunches, and you must hit muscle failure, then I don’t know what to say to you.
What Iron said. Diet.
Originally posted by KaiKhoon
… muscle failure …
There are other methods besides going to failure.
Of course to tone up, dude.
Please don’t say “tone” .
He said that’s why he was doing his work out, so in this case, his goal was to tone.
That was a different guy, not the original poster. Anyway, it doesn’t matter who says it, it’s still a dirty word ;).
So it was, I am new around here and am not much for other names. My belief was that he said it, and so that was why I was using it, you cannot critisize me there.
And yes I know, you will not get chizzled ab’s without improving your diet.
There are other methods besides going to failure.
Enlighten me :).
It’s all good, KK. Don’t worry too much. It’s just a word like “lower abs” or “upper abs” ;).
Failure may be a good method to maximise your hypertrophic program (then again it may not - not my area). Like I said a lot of us are about strength training (as opposed to bodybuilding). Many subscribe to Pavel Tsatsouline’s work, especially Power to the People (PTP). It’s been done to death, so search the forum. Suffice to say, I rarely go to failure but lift quite heavy (for me :p). I lift every day. I lift the powerlifts. Almost no-one here does isolation exercises. Compound exercises are the go. I can’t remember the last time I did a bicep curl of any sort. Blah, blah, blah, I’m just repeating what I’ve said before so I’ll stop and let you search (try “PTP”).
If you’ve got a specific question about anything, let us know.
