Martial Ministers!

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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More for the UK guys, but you’ll all find it sad.

I read a news article yesterday, saying that a group of priests, ministers & a Rabbi have decided to take self defence lessons, as there has been an increase in attacks on members of the clergy.

The thing is that the article says they will be receiving street self defence from a martial arts group called amuin union ( I might have got that wrong ) they intend to expand this nationwide.
It then says the ministers are looking forward to their first taste of…Tae-kwon-do.:smiley: :smiley:

Probably the least effective art for self defence known to man!

Can you imagine the local vicar bouncing around on 1 leg with his other foot in the air!:rolleyes:

Sad or what…

Colin…

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at least they won’t engage in satanic practices like chi cultivation.

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“Probably the least effective art for self defence known to man”

Ya’know some people would say the same thing about Kungfu

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I’m a minister

Seriously. I’ve performed 2 weddings. No last rites yet, but I’m sure I’ll find a candidate for that if I keep adminstreing this here forum.:wink:

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Johny Bravo:

You are kidding dude, right???

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bravo i am not. i don’t even have any hair (shave it nicely).

and kidding? maybe. i hate ashida kim posted this link a few threads back, and a few of us went kinda nuts on it:

take a deep breath before clicking …

7

Bravo,

Yeah, I read it. Those guys are at the ultra extreeme of Fundamentalist Christian groups.

They fill in the blanks things that nobody else does. Such as if you are breathing with intention, you are asking deamons into your body unknowingly. I come from a background very similar.
We believed that if you wore a peace necklace, you were opening yourself to demon possesion and crap like that. That group is also of the tiniest sliver of Christianity that you could possibly immagine. Less than one hundreth of one percent I would guess of the whole.

These guys are nuts.

Chi cultivation…how about westernizing that and saying relaxation, and exercising and having more energy due to less stress and better muscle control, plus good blood circulation and better oxygen flow throught the body. Sounds a lot less demonic!

Besides, these guys who are all filled with Chi/(Devil), why do they have all these moral virtues and promote peaceful living? The math just does not add up in real experience.

8

Avoid an class which teaches breathing exercises;

Avoid any class which teaches “meditation”;

Avoid any class which teaches “Eastern philosophy”. American 5th Dan Master Instructor Bob Miller initiates boys as young as 5-year-old into his own free-style version of Hapkido, which is a Korean Martial Art similar to “soft”-style Karate. He has stated: “While I teach them on a physical level, I throw philosophy at them” [32];

Avoid any class which claims to utilize “latent power”, for example, by encouraging students to develop their “inner potential” or “spiritual potential”;

Avoid any class which claims to give specific training to achieve “calmness of mind” or “equanimity”, which is usually a euphemism for training in the cultivation of occult passivity;

Avoid any class which claims to teach a particular school, system, or type of “Martial Art”, such as Wu Shu, Karate, Ju-jitsu, Spirit Combat, Feng-sao, or anything ending in -do (e.g. Judo, Yudo, Iaido, Aikido, etc.), as all refer to “Martial Arts”;

Avoid any class in which the leaders are secretive and reluctant to discuss special techniques, reserving such discussions only for advanced grades;

Right, its time for me to call upon the Aliens !!! :smiley:
now if you will excuse me… I need to become “submissive” and practise my “equanimity” :slight_smile:

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I been wondering that for a while. I dont know what to make heads or tails of that article. They do seem a bit extremist, but some of it makes sense. They pretty much excluded any martial arts training whatsoever though, Wushu, Kendo, Taekwondo, evil??? I dont know…if i study Tai Chi would that make me a Taoist (Evil Occultish Satanic Pagan D@mned to Hell For All Eternity) because it deals with circulatin’ chi, sinking it, opening meridians, generally giving you unbelievable abilities not accessable to normal humans training in run of the mill MA schools …bla bla bla. Come on, being kicked repeatedly in your crotch and bending spears with your throat is not normal, not to mention straight-blasting someone 20 feet while only pressing on their chest? Theres a million stories about the Internal Martial Arts. What about the health aspects. I can’t see MANY reasons why a “demon”, “evil spirit” would help heal someone but…just depends on if you believe in God and the whole sha-bang. Which i do but…it’s too late for this sh!t, i’m goin’ to bed.

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But to use Qi(which is a natural part of us, if it exists) doesn’t require us to worship other gods, deny the existence of God, etc. There’s allways been a tendency for Christian extremists to atribute things they don’t understand to demonic spirits. They also used to drill holes in people’s heads to release the “evil spirits” when someone was mentaly ill. Too many Christains are conditioned to blindly follow their “religous leaders” without thinking for themselves. Kind of like the whole Muslim terrorists thing. Luckly, our government is able to keep our extremists in check(mostly). Literacy helps too.

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Personaly, I feel that “qi” is just a much simpilar way of describing a combination of physical processes which are to complex for me to understand right now. Just a guess.

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Back to the topic at hand

I wouldn’t categorize TKD as the least effective art of self-defense known to man. It’s not that bad.

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They do seem a bit extremist, but some of it makes sense.

Anytime you take a little truth and mix it with error to come up with a false conclusion, this statement is true. Then we all have self doubt, thinking that it made ‘some’ sense.

What is more natural than friggin breathing?!? These extreeme guys think this: IF you ever give any credence to something other than God, then you are giving credence to the Devil. That could be breathing, necklaces, movies, symbols, statues, words you say, etc.

Bear in mind, in their little black and white world, you do not have to be aware of any of this. You can worship the Devil and not even know there is a Devil. It is beautiful. Think of the limitless potential now of things you can say about others you do not understand.

These master you mention and their feats, are not possible because they have Qi, and you do not. It is possible because they have refined and chanelled their Qi. That is where they are different.

It is no different that others not in CMA, that refine one aspect of humanity, or combine several aspects of existing humanity, such as running a 4 minute mile, or squating 1000 lbs, or letting 3000 bees form a ball on your head. All require channelling the mind, or the mind and muscle to a point that a normal person does not.

Nobody thought breaking 4 minutes was possible. In fact doctors said it was not physically possible! Nobody could do it, no matter how fast or talented, or genetics or training. But Bannister broke 4 minute in the mile, and within six months, I think 4 others also broke 4 minutes. Suddenly, every world class miler could beat 4 minutes. Today, if you cannot break 4 minutes, you are a bum in international mile competition! Trust me, these guys get in touch with their bodies to do that kind of running.

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What you mentioned about refining chi would be correct if in fact chi really existed. I’m still one of those people in the middle ground of the debate. Not discounting it as BS and not saying for certain that it exists. I’ll probably die before it is proven or discounted and no one may ever find out what really keeps humans alive, so i’m not holding my breath for it. Since its not going to affect my life and if it is in fact keeping me alive i cant really do sh!t about it. And what if chi does exist. Does that make it right to manipulate it and to use it for something like fighting of all things. Sorta like genetic engineering. It’s of course proven but does that give people the right to tamper with it and change the DNA of thier children to make “custom babies”, ( You know, what some German Scientist was trying to do during WW2) not to mention for cloning people…There are almost unlimited possibilities with Science, but the route people will go with it is really based on their beliefs.

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couple things…

i also agree that TKD is not one of the ‘least effective forms of self-defense known to man’. with TKD, i really think the adage of ‘the artist, rather than the art’ applies. i do not, however, think this applies universally. if i make “spoon fu” and chant “spoon!” as my primary technique, no matter how d@mn good at it i am, it’s not gonna be one of those ‘it’s the person not the style’ situations. i’ll still get smacked down.
now on to other things…

i think it’s the fundamentalist mindset that can best describe the “i’m right/you’re wrong” mentality. this exists independently of religion (think hardcore “scientific debates” about whether or not the atom could be split-Einstein said it could not) or any other belief system, other than the intrinsic belief of fundamentalism itself which is “i’m right, you’re wrong”. now the danger here IMO is the level of belief. someone i respect once told me ‘belief is the death of intelligence’. now, what this means to me is that the more i believe something, the less i question it, and then it becomes potentially dogmatic. what i have noticed about many groups that decry others is that they are exceedingly dogmatic and rigid, and anything that seeks to challenge their ways or question them is discounted almost immediately. there are even several martial artists (imagine that!) which exhibit this sort of behavior, and i’m sure several of you can think of some even on this very forum. typically, this mentality does not allow investigation of anything outside it’s paradigm, and is very shame and fear-based, scoffing at even the possibility that anything outside of the dogma could be valid. wow what a rant, i don’t know where i was going with this :stuck_out_tongue:

chi- does it exist? does it not? who knows, some say yes some say no… i think much of this depends on the definition. some say chi is nothing more than a mystification of physical processes that are little or not understood very well. some say it’s outside the boundaries of explanation by current paradigms. some say it’s some sort of cosmic ‘force’ that underlies everything. i prefer to think of it as a combination of alot of things, and my views are always subject to change (including the view that my views are subject to change :wink: ).

take this for what it’s worth :slight_smile:

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Leanodis

Dont wait till it is too late. If you have a genuine wish to know if it exists, take a comfy cushion, make it your concentration cushion.

Sit on it confortably, but keeping your spine straight. Just dont think of anything, dont even think of trying to find Qi. Just rest your mind into your breathing. If thoughts arise, just watch it, let it be, dont fall in the flow of it and watch it die away.. like Oh I need to write this email to this fellow asking for this… dont let it overpower you, just give yourself this time to relax and rest your mind. You will first realise just how many garbage thoughts run thru your mind. Like a weak flame on a candle influence by all the noises of life. No worries, just bring it back like a candle, it always comes back straight.

Like this, keep your mind at peace. If you cant feel your breathe touching your nose, dont worry, just put your mind at your nose, and relax. Don’t “focus”, dont “try” and don’t “concentrate”, just very calmly and peacefully relax.

When you discover Qi, you might even see your thoughts(habits) almost as a physical entity, or even find your body as dead as a corpse, you will understand many things, like what is a body without Qi.

Then read that article again :slight_smile: You dont need to “believe” in it, you dont need to “submit” to anything external. You are merely relaxing in your own thought space, and you will see just how much your thoughts have covered your true nature in millions and millions of layers of desire and hate, good and bad, bla bla bla

Give it a go sometime. And if you do give it a go, do let me know how you go :slight_smile:

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I’m trying man, i’m trying. I attempted something like that before. I was gazing out my window trying to get a little spark of enlightenment about exactly what chi is, it’s been bothering me for a long time, but i’m of course limited by my own mind. I think what you’ve suggested takes a bit of practice and you’ve been at it longer than me. Its one of the reasons i didn’t jump into Tai Chi. I dont know if chi even exists or if it’s a good or bad thing. So what if it makes you a fighting machine, so what if it heals you and lets you live a few more years. If you were starving and half dead would you sell your soul for a piece a bread, if only to live for a few more hours in agony. You might not believe in humans having a soul but thats the way i see it. That might seem like a weird analogy…can’t explain it any better…

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You make it sound, like you can have God or Chi, but not both. God creates a life force in us, and what do you call this life force? Call it what you want, but it is in you. It is real.

Focusing chi to fight, so what. Dumb argument frankly. No different than focusing your muscles to fight in the respect of manipulating ourselves to fight. What is the difference except that you are using something in your body to fight, whether it be your mind, or muscle or both.

Chi culitvation and refinement cannot be compared to genetic manipulation, which changes your fudamental make-up. Channling Chi is no different than chanelling your mind to memorise, to quit hicuping, to think positively in sad situations, or to lift wieghts and exercise to focus your body towards health.

You see I can make the same argument with running. Why run or even eat food, and gain a few more hours of your miserable life, when you can just exist and die early and be with God.

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Originally posted by Leonidas
I was gazing out my window trying to get a little spark of enlightenment about exactly what chi is, it’s been bothering me for a long time, but i’m of course limited by my own mind. I think what you’ve suggested takes a bit of practice

Hey man, we are all able :slight_smile: If you are gazing, maybe think whilst you are sitting there gazing, what are you gazing ? What are you using to gaze ? What happens when you gaze ? Do you label things when you gaze ? Do you like or hate those things when you gaze ?

Or if you are like me, you just not worry about gazing, and watch the breath :slight_smile: You will find it. Maybe if you dont try to look so hard.
Just sit and be empty… eventually it will jump out before you :slight_smile:

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(Expletive deleted), my whole post disappeared …

To make a long and boring post short. Chi is not proven so you can’t make claims of what is it or what it does. Your basically saying God gave us humans chi or what you call life force to be used anyway we see fit, including using it to destroy someone life force possibly killing them. I had the fear of hell put in me since birth :smiley: so i’m generally paranoid but i wouldn’t just shrug that off as nothing serious…So what if you can kick a$$ a ~little~ better. Is it that important. It’s not exactly on the top of my list of life goals. You make "chi refining seem like the easiest thing in the world. Comparable to breathing, and here i thought breathing was an exchange of O2 and CO2

You couldn’t compare it to running at all. You wouldn’t purposefully starve yourself would you. Unless you really hate yourself. But it’s a different story if someone is threatening your life in exchange for something important to you. Your life for your childrens is an example…