# mantis grabbing speed **URL:** \ **Category:** Northern Praying Mantis\ **Created:** [June 5, 2001, 1:05am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392 "2001-06-05T01:05:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2001, 5:59am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/21 "2001-06-15T05:59:47Z")
diciple 108 yes their are many differences in the branches of mantis, for instance seven star mantis holds the hands much closer together and their shoulders more square, eight step turns the shoulders at an angle and places the hands much father apart( as shown in the picture) which makes my argument with the ego extrodinar usless! becuase he dosent even understand the basics! the reason it is so low is not to show fighting aspects but lower body conditioning, the fighting form looks very boring, it is from a fighting stance and the hands never actually make a complete grab, you grab with the whole hand, which again dosent look like anything until executed! Many people have made a lot of positive comments about that stance, and ego is the only one who has no idea why! please attempt to try it for you will see the reason it is so trying! “start with a minute” make sure you back foot is flat and your quatracept is parallel to the ground with your back as straight as you can, then work up to 5 minutes then 10 and so on! thank you for your time! [http://www.kungfuUSA.net](http://www.kungfuUSA.net) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2001, 12:05pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/22 "2001-06-15T12:05:57Z")
dear ego I see that you are from N.J please tell me if you are near sayraville! beacuse I am teaching a seminar there at sayraville martial arts academy this fall and it would be interesting if you would attend “FREE OF CHARGE!” not sure if i am spelling the name of the town correctly but I am sure you know where it is! please let me know!!! [http://www.kungfuUSA.net](http://www.kungfuUSA.net) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2001, 12:33pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/23 "2001-06-15T12:33:21Z")
attention ego Here is the exact address of the school its at the Rex-Gene Center 426 Raritian st. Sayreville N.J 08872 please let me know if you can come! [http://www.kungfuUSA.net](http://www.kungfuUSA.net) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2001, 12:39am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/24 "2001-06-16T00:39:34Z")
Tactical Questions EarthDragon, After all the hot-air in your previous post, you still haven’t answered two very basic questions that are very reasonable. As if I care how long you’ve been learning mantis, or the things you’ve done in your misspent childhood or the people you’ve slept with last night. Thanks for you FREE invite to your seminar anyway. Could we ask questions and get an answer that starts off with something other than How Dare you question the great si fu of 19 years of training blah blah blah blah blah blah… Or must we all agree with you? I might consider coming if I haven’t got enough of a ear full from you on this forum and shown that you can talk intelligently. Maximus Materialize! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2001, 2:32am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/25 "2001-06-16T02:32:51Z")
dear ego ok lets start off on the right foot this time. first to answer your questions 1. the hand position in the picture is for form only! NOT TO DEMONSTATE A FIGHTING POSITION!, therefore the hand postions are correct plus Mantis practioners never grab with a mantis hook “as you call it” the correc6t name is (gou) you grab with the whole hand. For show we use the last two fingers to show a grabbing motion, not to be confused with an actual grab which would require much more hand strength and the use of all five fingers! question #2 can be answered by the above staments! I do not want you to think I am concieded or that I am better then you for I am very humble however when a person attempts with wrong and inaccurate knowledge and obviously less training under their belt tells you your wrong, then any person would naturally want to defend themselfs other wise how would one survive on a day to day basis. do you question your teacher? do you tell everyone their wrong or your not doing that right? just wondering why you are so negitive. now its time to answer my questions what style do you train in? where? how long? and are you gonna come to the seminar? it will be on jointlocking ( chi na fa) and bone setting and again for you it will be free of charge!!! [http://www.kungfuUSA.net](http://www.kungfuUSA.net) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2001, 6:37pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/26 "2001-06-16T18:37:47Z")
Reply Earthdragon, Thanks for your reply. To answer your questions, my background in martial arts have been varied. I started off doing Choy Lay Fut and Pak Hok Pai for a number of years, say 5 to 7 before a friend of mine introduced me to Northern Kung fu styles. During that time I had an exposure to Pi Qua, mantis, Hsing I. However my training wasd cut short by a car accident where I’ve lost the use of my legs. Although I’m not at liberty to disclose my ex-si fus or the schools I’ve trained in I am free to dicuss what I’ve learned from these styles. It is for you to decide if what I say makes sense. In my opinion, the lenght of trainig doesn’t say as much as how you train and how you apply the style. When I was doing kung fu, I find it refreshing to train with beginners. You don’t have to be an expert to ask intelligent questions and alot of the the time is try and see if it works! why i was so negative is because a “mantis catching a cicada” in that position and in that low stance would not work. (i think you agree). I wasn’t aware that the picture was for training leg strength. I’ve neverb trained in such a low stance before as I think it would actually damage your kness - again that’s my opinion. And say if someone were to photograph me in a stance - well it would be a fighting stance - very basic nothing to look at. Why? because i would not want to detract from the main objective of kung fu - ie. fighting without the perepherals - again that’s my view. In response to your comment, I disagree. it is generally suffice to hook with the two last finger and the thumb to gain the split second to launch an attack. When I did mantis, yes, i did use the 5 finger grip but only in situations that were evidently leading into grappling in one form or another. But if I can hit, i wouln’t even bother to hook. I’ve detailed the “protocal” in my response to baldmantis. Thanks for the invite to the seminare. Sounds interesting but not very useful for me in the physical condition that I’m in. However, I have talked about this with my friend who would like to come - on the condition that he comes as a fee paying attendee otherwise it wouldn’t be fair to other attendees who are as much a martial arts enthusest as we are. It’s a mater of principal. Plus, it might set a precedent to others that if they are negative to you on the forum, they’ll get a free invite! (Just kidding on the last point). All the best. Maximus Materialize! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 5:41am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/27 "2001-06-17T05:41:40Z")
dear ego It sounds like you have a good heart and good intent, and once again I apologize for comming back at you so strongly. Its just that I have put a lot of time into my training to make it as traditional and as best as it can be, even down translating some very old chinese manuscripts to futher my knowldge of linaments and herbology.So if something as basic as stance was not perfect I would be the first one to correct it for my self, much less select it for our website for the world to see! so I wish you all the best, good luck to you!.. P.S fell free to post some things on our forum " just please no negitivity" thank you Mr. Extrodinar [http://www.kungfuUSA.net](http://www.kungfuUSA.net) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2001, 10:53pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/28 "2001-06-17T22:53:31Z")
That’s interesting Earthdragon, Yes your right. I have a big ego - which means i can’t be wrong. So we must both be right 🙂 You mentioned that mantis practitioners don’t grab with the “hook” or Gau as what you refer to it. Why then is it expressed in the system / form? Maximus Materialize! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2001, 3:05am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/29 "2001-06-18T03:05:46Z")
dear ego Well to answer your question the “form” as you call it or sets(cueyen) is the flashy or showing part of any system, Not to be confused with the application or fighting techniques that are hidden in the sets! what they are is not what you see It is the high level in karate that you learn the (bon kai) or reason for the kata.Once again the hand position of the mantis is for show to demonstrate or mimick the insect. The full grab of ones hand would require more of the hand muscle to be ulitized, therefore mantis practioners grab with the whole hand not just the last two fingers! in hungar they spend most of their time in (Mabou) "horse stance’ does that mean that the inexperienced observer downs the system with a remark like that stance is too low!! how could you fight from such a position! and with the fists in chamber, how can you possibly punch!!! do you hear how ridiculous that sounds comming from some one with just a little trianing. I hope you understand and dont get mad at me for answering your question! for to always be right as you say you must know all! then why are you asking in the first place! waiting to hear from you… P.S is your paralysis temporary or permenent! [http://www.kungfuUSA.net](http://www.kungfuUSA.net) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 7:22pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/30 "2001-06-24T19:22:31Z")
fighting the way you train Earth Dragon, Yes I’ve come across many schools in my time that fight differently from how they train. There are Hung Gar schools where they train like you said - in low stances and fight like a kick boxer. I agree, low stances train up the leg stength - but in a fight it is more the mobility you want. Fight’s don’t go on for that long so it’s not a test of endurence. I guess the question is why don’t you train the way you fight? Just get to the nuts and bolts of what kung fu is. In terms of the mantis forms, I tend to disagree that forms are the flashy part. To me, forms represent the parameters from which the techniques are contrained. Note: the parameters themselves are techniques. I don’t agree that there should be any flashy parts to the core system. If they’re there, its probably due to wushu influence. In terms of grabbing - it’s probably quicker to hook with the last 2 fingers, sure the rest of the hand and the other 3 fingers are used. I’m making a distinction between the mantis hook compared to a traditional 5 finger grab - say when you hold a bottle or something. Maximus Materialize! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 2:54am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/31 "2001-06-25T02:54:04Z")
response to ego I guess the reason we train is different becuse training means a well rounded program not just the fighting aspect of kung fu! when one learns kung fu he is learning an art, a way of life sorta speak. Fighting is a very small part of kung fu. As our system and most systems originate in (henan), shaolin temple. kung fu was designed to strenghten a monk on a daily basis. Their training consisted of many different things.not just the 18 movements of the lohan. When one trains in any art he is learning self defense, for that purpose only! so if you spend all your time training yourself to fight, then you have only touched on a very small part of what kung fu is all about! dont get me wrong I teach a very deadly style of praying mantis which breaks, pulls and tears bones,joints and ligaments. but as one matures in kung fu they realize that this is not what one should do to another human being unless it is absoulutly neccesary.if you do not agree with that then either you are in the wrong martial art or you have not reached that level of maturity yet. any one with fists can fight but a martial artist goes beyond such basic thinking! As for forms they are desingned to train the fighting applications of the system but also increase speed, flexability, balance,fluidity of movement and coordination. They do not disclose the application of fighting to the untrained eye. We have a set called (lanjia) intercept its opening movement from a mantis stance"like the low one from the picture that started this disscussion" it strikes up, down back and forward with the right hand only! the application of that movement is a throw! but unless you knew that it looks like a chin ,groin pull and palm strike. So you see things were ment to be hidden when practicing sets for all to see! so from what you have stated in ancient times when one would learn or “copy” the movements of a set, they would know the in’s and out’s of the style? theres and old story about"yang lu san" who hid in the chen village and secrectly watched the chen family practising tai chi, he mimicked all the movements and practiced them every night for 20 years, after all that time his tai chi lacked internal strenghth when someone told the chen family about his anticts, they laughed and said its like stealing an empty egg! for it has nothing inside to use!!! so you see where Im comming from yet? please respond [http://www.kungfuUSA.net](http://www.kungfuUSA.net) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 9:56pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/32 "2001-06-25T21:56:14Z")
Response to EarthDragon EarthDragon, Kung Fu training should first and foremost “do no harm” to yourself that is. There are many forms of exercises that could lead to all sorts of spinal injuries etc which an instructor should be knowledgeable about. Then there’s the objective of learning how to fight which happens to be accompined by improved co-ordination, dexterity, strength etc. So instead of going to a gym, Kung Fu provides a means of keeping fit as well as teaching the fighting applications. I guess unless you’re living in a rough area, we probably have limited use of kung fu in everyday life - from a fighting sense that is. But it’s good to know that it’s there if verbal negotiations break down:) Kung Fu tends to help in sports because it teaches us to use our bodies which we otherwise couldn’t. But one thing I don’t quite agree is “Kung Fu being a way of life”. Yes, it’s an enjoyable hobby and has many health benefits or maybe in your case a rewarding career as an instrustor. But a way of life might be taking it a little further than what Kung Fu is intended to be. In the old days i guess the monks would be training for a duel purpose - exercise and self defence. The hard core usage probably occurred in the military - where their General’s career is on the line everytime he goes into battle. About LanJia. I think I know the form you’re refering to. It’s to do with in fighting techniques, with lots of twisting and wriggling and sudden explosive moves? If that’s what you’re taking about, than yes, memorizing the form does not mean you know the application. It’s pretty much the waist movement that’s the driving factor behind the hand movements you’ve described. Maximus Materialize! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 10:01am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/33 "2001-06-26T10:01:51Z")
response what I menat about kung fu being a way of life is what I have expeirenced In my life! I have had the oppritunity to live with two chinese masters at different times in my life, and what they have taught me reflects on every part of my life wether it be for fighting, meditation, qi control or just a positive perspective on life from a enlightment point of veiw. What I mean is if you go to a gym to work out its for exercise, when you hang up your towel after you’ve showered your exercise is over! when my students leave the kwon they go out into the world with different eyes and place judgement upon expeirence rather than negitivity! As for the form (lanjia) yes their are many twisting waist movements, we call this (jing) corkscrewing power taken fom the ground and generated through the hips and out through the hands, however it is the opening movement that I was reffering to explain everything is not always what it seems, especially in chinese kung fu where many movements are hidden or secret not for other people to see or understand for that matter! [http://www.kungfuUSA.net](http://www.kungfuUSA.net) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 7:59pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/34 "2001-06-26T19:59:30Z")
Response to EarthDragon “what I menat about kung fu being a way of life is what I have expeirenced In my life! I have had the oppritunity to live with two chinese masters at different times in my life, and what they have taught me reflects on every part of my life wether it be for fighting, meditation, qi control or just a positive perspective on life from a enlightment point of veiw.” It’s great that you had the two role models to follow but it should be taken in a separate context to kung fu. For example you can learn to say play the paino and do so very competently and maybe even become a performer in your own right. But it is not a necessary to follow the foot steps or adopt the views of one’s teacher. Similar with kung fu. Mantis Kung Fu being a system is a set of rules / principals of classical combat. Just as there is a science to areal combat, there is a science attributed to classical combat. I’ve had friends with people who are martial artist and others who have other hobbies or careers. What I can say is that we cannot deduce someone’s personality or character by the things they enjoy doing in their free time or work life. That’s why I disagree with the view that kung fu is a way of life. Sure it can be a part of your life as are many other things. “What I mean is if you go to a gym to work out its for exercise, when you hang up your towel after you’ve showered your exercise is over! when my students leave the kwon they go out into the world with different eyes and place judgement upon expeirence rather than negitivity!” Well I guess, kung Fu albeit mantis requires dedication and hardwork which can become positive attributes in other endeavours. However, these and other qualities could be developed through other means. For example a world class golf player must have this sort of motivation besides having talent! “As for the form (lanjia) yes their are many twisting waist movements, we call this (jing) corkscrewing power taken fom the ground and generated through the hips and out through the hands, however it is the opening movement that I was reffering to explain everything is not always what it seems, especially in chinese kung fu where many movements are hidden or secret not for other people to see or understand for that matter!” I’m not sure if it’s taken from the ground. It comes from the waist and back. yes you get good grounding and forward action - but it’s from the waist twisting. There are a couple of moves where the turning is done in the air. The opening moves are unlikely to be throws. It is to do with applying forearm pressure and creating a “wedge” to prevent a bad situation from getting worse. OK that’s the basic applications, but that sort of forearm pressure can be applied to getting into postions for you to put “locks” on. And the upweard striking claw is deals with situations when you’re taken unawares - so u hit anything, their jaw, inside of their arm etc… anything and everyhing - no time to think! That’s why I was emphasising on the waist twist and all the hand movements are the result. In terms of the moves being a secret - I probably see it in this light. Let’s say you’re a novice at English, it is unlikely that you’ll be able to appreciate Shakespear. Same thing with Mantis, I don’t think that the intention was to hide anything, more so the fact that an untrained observer is not skilled enough to pick up the content. The fist form in mantis is probably Bung Bo. That level already deals with combat tactics - which would suggest that the basics (kicks, punches, correct stance work) is assumed knowledge. A beginner would have to train in these basics before moveing to Bung Bo. What more Lan Jia - which is another level of difficulty up. Answers the questions of what IF Bung Bo breaks down. Lan Jia is a very important set - in my opinion. Maximus Materialize! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 11:49pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/35 "2001-06-26T23:49:02Z")
dear ego Your words and your opions are very valid and without the “egotisical shall we say” point you used to try to make when we began this thread.I now enjoy reading your posts. And know ones opion is ever wrong thats what makes us individuals. It seems you have knowledge about mantis but you now seem to open up and listen a little more to others which is good, for no one likes talking to a know it all, but you now express your opions which is what this board was designed for, not to put people down and tell them they are wrong or thier stance is to low becuase you dont understand the usage or that you just dont agree.OK!!!.. to explain what I meat by the power comming from the ground is a higher level of trianing and understanding of (jing) it is like (chi) we do not own it we just posses it. When training in qi-gong their is an excercise that is done to pull universal (chi) from the ground through the feet to the (dantien) and then out through the hands. The minute you think this force is yours or generated by your own body it is lost! so when true jing power is execucted it is simply borrowed for the earth and conducted through us but not by us, you see,so yes it is in the waist but how did it get there? where did it come from? now you know! when bruce lee was asked where his power came from when he demonstated the 1 inch punch he replied the ankle!for he did not want to admit it came from the ground because he thought that americans would not take him seriously and would not understand what the hell he meant… people still don’t Please respond [http://www.kungfuUSA.net](http://www.kungfuUSA.net) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2001, 7:24am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/36 "2001-06-27T07:24:25Z")
Wing chun Wing chun is a non flashy and directly agressive system. we fight like we train. You could not say this about WC, Ego. But you sure tried to bash it before. Remember. One who has two roots becomes a stronger tree. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2001, 11:06pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/37 "2001-06-27T23:06:49Z")
response “OK!!!.. to explain what I meat by the power comming from the ground is a higher level of trianing and understanding of (jing) it is like (chi) we do not own it we just posses it.” I find that it’s hard to see it from the maybe… traditional chinese way of explaining it but the movements would work regardless of the way its being explained. I tend to see it this way, the ground provides a stable platform for your movements. For example in the opening moves of Lan Jia, the twisting of the waist and resulting arm movements have to be compensated with a low enough stance and enough anchor in your lower waist and leg muscles to provide stability. Or in the first line of Bung Bo, “the flying punch” is launched from a bow stance. You have the thigh, calf muscles working and then then ankles, feet toes kick in combined with the waist twist from which you send out your punch. So, yes, you rely on the reaction force from the ground - kind of like Newton’s thrid law of motion. a lot of “tricks” are done with playing the center of gravity, how low you can sit on a stance and having the spinginess to provide mobility. Does this make sense? “When training in qi-gong their is an excercise that is done to pull universal (chi) from the ground through the feet to the (dantien) and then out through the hands.” Mmmmmm I’ve done breathing exercises and yes there are benefits. Muscles need to be oxigenated and the more efficient you can breath the more stamina you could achieve. But I’ve never thought of this in terms of chi. what is chi anyway? I also tend to think of moves coming from the larger parts of the body - ie. the centre of gravity - large muscles then radiating to the hands and feet - the body extremeties. If it is the feet or hands controlling the body it’ll be like the tail wagging the dog so to speak. “The minute you think this force is yours or generated by your own body it is lost! so when true jing power is execucted it is simply borrowed for the earth and conducted through us but not by us, you see” Oooh that’s a hard one to understand. Maybe it’s like walking or running. It’s not something you think about - but just do it. Well say you’re in a fight, why do you move the way you’ve been trained - well i guess it’s because it is less efficient to do so otherwise. Your body will know. There have been times when other practitioner had commented. Ego, you did this, this and that move that countered this, that and the other. I don’t know, just did it because it felt right. Or been clipped in the face and twisted away. Why? because it felt right. So I guess mantis is not something you need to conciously think about. “,so yes it is in the waist but how did it get there? where did it come from? now you know! when bruce lee was asked where his power came from when he demonstated the 1 inch punch he replied the ankle!” The ankle’s a small joint. Immense power can be generated for just being efficient. Think of a car, if the ignition system is not properly tuned - ie the spark plug is firing at a differnt beat to the fuel injection system, you’ll get lots of soot in the exhaust. Like wise, if you can coordinate your muscles to fire at a precise sequence then for the given amount of energy expended your performance would be much greater. “for he did not want to admit it came from the ground because he thought that americans would not take him seriously and would not understand what the hell he meant… people still don’t” But I must admit, I don’t understand descriptions based on Chinese philosophy - because it is not my background. I tend to make sense of things in scientific concepts - or just by trying… lets see how this works and why. Maximus Materialize! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2001, 2:56am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/38 "2001-06-28T02:56:57Z")
what? For example in the opening moves of Lan Jia, the twisting of the waist and resulting arm movements have to be compensated with a low enough stance and enough anchor in your lower waist and leg muscles to provide stability. Or in the first line of Bung Bo, “the flying punch” is launched from a bow stance. You have the thigh, calf muscles working and then then ankles, feet toes kick in combined with the waist twist from which you send out … Pardon me but was it not you who mocked my low stance to begin with!!! I remember you telling me that I must come back down to earth with that “wusu cat stance” which is too low to move from and that my hands are too far apart!!! but yet in the paragraph above you countradict yourself! I’m not angry about your critasism its just ironic that you said you knew so much but now are asking WHAT IS CHI? if you dont understand what chi is it is impossible for me to explain (jing) or that the earth is much much more than a platform to stand on as you stated in your post! most people walk on the earth; few walk with the earth. To understand the energy in the earth one must first understand the energy in the human body! this cannot be done without the understanding of chi! you have stated that you have some training but what did your teacher teach you if you dont understand basic force? Im not belittling your teacher but if in fact he is teaching martial arts surley he has some knowledge of chi! please refer back to our web site and click to tai chi button as well as the qi-gong button and read!!! [http://www.kungfuUSA.net](http://www.kungfuUSA.net) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2001, 10:42pm UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/39 "2001-06-28T22:42:53Z")
Reply EarthDragon, My last post mentioned that the stance has to be low enough to provide stability without compromising the springiness. I felt that from your pictures your stance was too low, although I should have said it in a different way. To which you replied that the stance was for training purposes - which I guess you don’t fight in that stance. But when I was training mantis, I fought in the stance I trained. The objective was always combat driven (without compromising the health aspects). So coming back to Lan Jai, yes my stance was low - but not that low. One thing i should say though, how low is too low is not universal - but a personal thing. So maybe you can move well in a lower stance than i could. If you can than it’s right for you! “I’m not angry about your critasism its just ironic that you said you knew so much but now are asking WHAT IS CHI? if you dont understand what chi is it is impossible for me to explain (jing)” Seriously, I don’t understand chi. I’ve read through you web page. Or maybe I sould say that I don’t understand mantis expressed through the concept of chi. That is not to say that my mantis didn’t worked as it did - being able to fight the way that i had trained. “or that the earth is much much more than a platform to stand on as you stated in your post! most people walk on the earth; few walk with the earth.” you’ve lost me there - it is not a critism on your part. “To understand the energy in the earth one must first understand the energy in the human body! this cannot be done without the understanding of chi!” I tend to think of energy in a scientific concept. Energy in the earth I tend to associate with things like volcanos and plate tectonics etc. But guess t is not what you mean. As for energy in the body, it’s kind of like what I mentioned in my last post - bio mechanics and the like. And looking at the overall training aspects - then it would be the types of food - for example carbohydrates burn more efficiently than fats etc… But then I think your concept of Enegy is again different. “you have stated that you have some training but what did your teacher teach you if you dont understand basic force?” But I think I do. In the last post, discussed at length of how forces can be redirected and delivered. As well as the concept of the centre of gravity. “Im not belittling your teacher but if in fact he is teaching martial arts surley he has some knowledge of chi!” It’s nothing to do with my teachers. In fact, some of them have been competent practitioners in Chinese medicine. They probably understand chi. However, I don’t share that interest. However, I saw that as a separate part of northern kung fu training. Just like some one could have learned robotics from me as well as kung fu. I may express kung fu in scientific terms because of my background in physics. But it doesn’t mean that it has to be any less than someone who has a background in chinese medicine. Maximus Materialize! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex034/uploads/kungfumagazine/original/2X/e/ee79c1ddba056fb2c94515d43d7de1be82ac7fa6.png) [@system](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2001, 6:15am UTC](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392/40 "2001-06-29T06:15:42Z")
response O.K let me help you, as far as chi goes scientificly it is magnectic energy componded by electromagnetics, meaning the brain which is the positive (yang) and the sacrum which is negitive (yin) We know of earths gravitational pull as positive and negitive which is the same as our bodies, when polarity is reversed through qi-gong training or breathing techniqes we can reverse that polarity to become either very light for movement or levitation or heavy for rooting or grounding so the earth plays a very important role in this. Just as trees take in our carbon dioxide and give off oxygen for without this simple circle we would sufficate. So to know chi is to know life. To know chi within ones body we are abil to perform certain techniques that with out the use of chi would be impossilble! iron palm is one technique that totally relies on chi for it is not the muscle strength nor the force used from the body in which the object is broken. It is the amount of chi summend from the ground passing through the body and then through the object that does the breaking! not the person, they are simply the conductor for the force. a extremly simple but not totally acurate explination of chi is the life force energy that keeps us alive. And in no way should any martial art be seperated from this union of movement and chi, other wise it is but an empty shell and it cannot exsist without its opposite. the basic theory of the yin/yang symbol. do you understand a little now? do you know what the yin/ yang symbol represents? if you do you will relize that it is all related and that any training must have both parts to be complete. If it is not than the teacher is in no way qualified to teach and you should seek a knowledgable shifu… thank you again [http://www.kungfuUSA.net](http://www.kungfuUSA.net) [Previous page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.kungfumagazine.com/t/mantis-grabbing-speed/5392.md?page=3)