Longfist to animal to internal= a progression method?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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internal or external…?

Shaolin Dynasty: a good post.

I just want to add in my thoughts. Why is doing an external system first benificial? The concepts and principles are totally different! In my own experience of moving from external to internal it’s been more of a hinderance than a help. I’ve spent the last 18 months UN-learning everything i have done before. Perhaps it would have been better if i had done nothing before?
If you have a good teacher, learning the principles is easy - but applying them with a partner or in ‘combat’ is totally different! When i’m under any type of pressure, i tend to fall back on what has been ingrained inside me (13 years of karate training, as well as various other styles), so it makes it very frustrating.

For example: i have one Sihing who started around 4 months before me. He understands the skill very well, better than me, as he hasn’t trained anything before. But when it comes to i guess ‘fighting’, my reactions and instincts are much better than his. Even though i am falling back on what i have done before, it still saves my @ss!

Yung Apprentice: don’t worry. I’m sure you will have no problems, as long as you have a good Sifu and study hard :slight_smile: you’ve already done research so i think know what u want,

david

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“I just want to add in my thoughts. Why is doing an external system first benificial? The concepts and principles are totally different! In my own experience of moving from external to internal it’s been more of a hinderance than a help. I’ve spent the last 18 months UN-learning everything i have done before. Perhaps it would have been better if i had done nothing before?”

That’s what I always thought. They are completely different. Why would you learn say Wing Chun before Hsing Yi or choy li fut before Bagua? It just doesn’t make sense to me. They have nothing really to do with each other, I mean they don’t even use the same basic movement. I think a system will move you from external to internal as you gain experience and learn to realx and all that I am not a big fan of saying “Oh that’s an external form cause it’s hard and fast or that’s internal cause it’s slow and soft”. If you get to a “higher level” You should be both at the same time, in all your movements not just particular forms and styles.

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Ahhh…the old internal vs. external debate.

I have a little bit different take on it than most people.

External martial arts are like highschool. They provide the basic techniques, basics of movement, a foundation, develop strength, balance, breathing methods. It is a foundation, if you will.

Internal arts (or aspects of “external” arts) are like graduate school. They contain more sophisticated, “mature” techniques. They use less raw muscular power and rely more on chi/spirit/mental aspects. They are more refined compared to there external counter parts.

Many people jump into an internal art like Taijii having never studied an external Shaolin-type art. It will take them a long time to achieve real world martial proficiency because they are essentially taking a college course having never completed highschool. True, the person studying the external art is going to have to “unlearn” some external movements. But in terms of self-defense they will be able to defend themselves much better than the person that is all theory.

That is as far as I’d carry the definition. Every art is going to be nearly completely different in how it makes the progression. The techniques and training are going to be different.

However, the unifying factor is the human body. It can only move in so many different ways. The most natural way for the body to move is in spirals. So the more linear an art is, the more muscular it is, the more external it is and the less efficient it is. The chinese call the principle of spiral movement Chan Si Jing or “silk reeling energy.” It is common sense that the quickest way between two points is a straight line however in terms of the human body it is actually a spiral. So regardless of which art you are talking about at the higher levels you will see less hard linear movements and more soft spirally movements. Taiji is an art that exemplifies this.

Peace.

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“So regardless of which art you are talking about at the higher levels you will see less hard linear movements and more soft spirally movements”

I like to think of this as the better you get in your art the more subtle your techniques are through experience you learn how to maximize your bodies energy and use it effeciently. In the end alot of the different methods acheive similar results. There may be small differences though.

Fu Pow you are a CLF man right? So do you feel a Bagua or hsing yi man is superior to you?

I think the reason people feel like their ability is greatly improved by learning internal arter external is cause they are cross training. It’s not that internal is superior but you are learning to see things in a different way, the more point of veiws you get on somthing the more complete the picture is or seems.

I’ll just come right out and say it I feel like I can kick alot of Internal artists @$$ and alot of them could kick mine. See EQUAL nothing higher level aout their style.

P.s. This isn’t about internal as a whole it’s about the 3 styles(or related/Taoist) of Taichi, Bagua, and Hsing Yi and sombody commenting that these styles are superior to other styles because of their mechanics or whatever. I feel they are EQUAL and different.

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greater focus …

i’m still a newbie but i’ll elaborate the best i can.

there is just so much more internal stuff going on when you practice an internal style. you have to feel your feet breathing energy from the earth . . . feel it collected in your center … shoot it out through the moving limb . .. focus it to the smallest possible point of impact and then through the target. in order for any of this to occur you have to be completely relaxed yet be able to snap into an attack at the last second. you must also have the right intent and be aware of your entire body at all times. all of this requires a clear mind which is an endeavor of its own.

at the point where all of the above become natural you have achieved a state of awareness and focus greater than most people would ever imagine. this makes you a more focused person, not just a more focused martial artist. sitting meditation would do the same thing for your focus eventually (or maybe more quickly … i dunno …i do know that sitting meditation is very benificial for internal arts allong with chikung of course).

you could probably reach the same state with all most anything, including external arts, but meditation and internal arts are designed to take you there. instead of having to cut your own path you just follow the one lain before you.

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Like BlackJack mentioned, the application of the internal styles tends to be much, MUCH simpler than that of the external styles. I’m not sure where the ‘complicated’ idea came from.

Also, remember that internal does not mean soft, yielding, breathing methods, and all that other stuff. Practicing this does NOT mean you are practicing internal methods.

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“Also, remember that internal does not mean soft, yielding, breathing methods, and all that other stuff. Practicing this does NOT mean you are practicing internal methods.”

This was my point when I said I don’t like the catagories to begin with. So many of the “internal” benifits of the above posts also exsist in the “external” arts to. They do oporate on different mechanics but the mechanics also vary between the “internal” arts themselves. This whole thing started out of me saying those catagories are misleading and a horrible sweeping generalization. I guess that’s where I’ll end to. Internal and external are just words, and if your style is good then you’ll have both I guess.

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My experience:

External emphasis: Hitting, low stances, strong horse, strong hitting, hitting, hitting. Techniques. Varies techniques.

Internal Focus: Body mechanics (using the upper back and shoudler, keeping a strong shape), keeping ones door closed, opening the other’s door, good pushing angle, straight spine, using the hip, not the knee, internal power work, theories, not technique.

With internal, in my school, most have studied other arts, we don’t need to be taught how to hit, but how to get in and open a good fighters door, hitting is the easy part. But, by using the upper back and shoulder, one get’s an advanatge, by keeping a strong shape and not over extending the arms, but advancing a sa whole solid structure, that is another advanatge.

Also, theories of how to deal with different force pressure so one can handle any situation, over memorizing techniques for various situations.

I think these advanatges, when added up, become big. The largest advantage to me: A STRONG STRUCTURE, not breaking from this, not extending. Then driving with the legs through the person. One shot kill, not multiple punches. Control the entire person with your entire person. Hitting is easy. It’s the other things.

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Also huge: Single weighted! On the back foot. Prevents having your front foot kicked out (at first).